TrainerRoad, Wahoo KICKR and FTP

[E65Ross]

Quick question to those who use TrainerRoad....I'm wondering whether the calculation for my FTP is correct or not...

I just did a 20 minute test. I had a problem with the trainer moving at around 12-13mins into the 20minute effort so for a short spell I had to pause the workout to quickly move it and get back on the bike. This altered my heart rate so the estimated FTHR is obviously going to be a little low but I'm curious as to the power.

For some reason the trainer went into ERG mode, I was led to believe it would be in "level" mode. anyway.....here is a screenshot of the result



Now, you can see that for the bulk of it I was hanging on to around 210W or so, and my HR was somewhere around the 165-170 mark for most of it.

bare in mind I'm only 53kgs at the moment....but it gave me an FTP if 170W and a FTHR of 137, can that be right? I apprecite the heart rate would clearly be higher but what about the power?

If I can just about sustain 210W or so for 20mins then surely I could sustain more than 170 for an hour...maybe??

It wasn't performed under perfect conditions, I had cycled 87 miles Friday and another 20 miles last night as well!

I'm half inclined to up it from 170 to 175 or something, what do you think?

I must say that I love how it determines your fitness to work out how hard you should be working on workouts and adjusts the trainer resistance accordingly. Looks like a great bit of software.

Many thanks in advance

Edited by E65Ross on Sunday 9th August 11:35

[E65Ross]

edit

I have noticed that going back into the 20 minute test with an FTP of 170 asks me to try a power of 183 for the 20 minute period. You can see that I can easily do that, as I averaged over 200.....it seems as though the FTP reading is perhaps around 10% too low?Looking online it says to take the 20 minute average and multiply by 0.95. My average was around 208 if you take the 1st couple of minutes of around 180W into the equations. This would give an FTP of 198W which seems a bit more realistic!

Having plugged that number into TrainerRoad and gone to enter the 20 minute test again it's asking for me to try around 210W for the 20min effort....which is about what I did! This would give me an FTP/KG of about 4W/kg

So should i just change my FTP manually to 198?

Thanks

Edited by E65Ross on Sunday 9th August 15:46

[simonF10]

Try a few workouts at 198. If you can't complete the workouts or are really struggling with them maybe drop your ftp down a few watts. Alternatively if you find the workouts easy to complete, raise your ftp a few watts. I find myself doing this quite a bit rather than taking ftp tests all the time (don't have the mental strength for an all out effort indoors for 20 mins).

[E65Ross]

simonF10 said:

Try a few workouts at 198. If you can't complete the workouts or are really struggling with them maybe drop your ftp down a few watts. Alternatively if you find the workouts easy to complete, raise your ftp a few watts. I find myself doing this quite a bit rather than taking ftp tests all the time (don't have the mental strength for an all out effort indoors for 20 mins).

That's exactly it, I really don't fancy doing that test again, I'd much rather get stuck in with the workouts.

I'm beginning to think what it has done is include the actual time spent moving the trainer back and added to the overall average. If I took 2 mins.....my average would be 208/22mins rather than 20, that would give an FTP a lot closer to the 170 predicted than what is realistically true.

I'm going to plug it at 198....yes, I had a small amount of rest in between, but my legs weren't feeling fresh either and suspect around the 200 mark is probably quite realistic anyway.

Just had a look at some of the sessions and whilst some don't seem too bad, others seem really difficult!

[simonF10]

Also try doing a workout called Lamarck, it's 4x10 right at 100% ftp with 2 minute recoveries in between efforts. I find if I can can complete this but feel like I don't have much left at the end my ftp is about right.

[E65Ross]

simonF10 said:

Also try doing a workout called Lamarck, it's 4x10 right at 100% ftp with 2 minute recoveries in between efforts. I find if I can can complete this but feel like I don't have much left at the end my ftp is about right.

Perfect. I'll give this a go soon. I half feel guilty using the trainer when the weather is so nice.... But I got it yesterday and so had to try it out! I bought it with winter in mind but I know the earlier I use some of these workouts once a week (replacing one of my rides) the sooner I'll get faster.

Just need to buy a tall powerful fan now! Was absolutely dripping earlier!

Thanks very much!

There are some great workouts on there, some of the longer ones look seriously tough!

[Ponk]

A good threshold test is key to all the workouts that follow. If you got off mid test I think it's going to skew your results.

Ideally you want to be doing it when you are fresh and with a 5 min blow out beforehand to remove the freshness from your legs.

[nammynake]

As an aside, ensure that the firmware is up to date. You can check using the Kickr App. They recently did a sizeable recalibration due to power readings being overestimated - probably around 10-20W based on the feel of sessions pre and post update.

[TonyHetherington]

I used trainerroad (really rate it) and found I did the 20min test, but it was a little on the low side, so as I was doing workouts if I found them 'easy' (by that I mean I could walk at the end), then I'd just bump the figure a few watts higher - and did that until I found a point that felt right on the workouts

[E65Ross]

Thank you everyone for the replies. Really do appreciate it.

Before posting on here I contacted TrainerRoad and they got back to me and said they looked my graph online, edited out the "off the bike section" and it came up with a value of 201....they said the fact I got off the bike this should be lowered a little but said 170 was far too low and, as I thought, suggested somewhere around 195-197 or so.

I don't start work until later Wednesday, I usually cycle in but I MIGHT try the 20 minute test again. My only concern was I'm almost certain it went into ERG mode hence my power was so consistent. Having said that....it did feel JUST about right, I was blowing out my arse come the end of it. Any ideas why it may have done that? I did put it in level mode initially, it went into level mode for the 5min test but I'm so, so sure it went to ERG for the 20mins test, where it shouldn't. Failing that, I can easily to the test myself....do a warm up, press lap on my garmin edge, do 5mins hard, press lap, 5mins cooling off and press lap again for the 20 minute effort and get the lap average for the 20mins and multiply that by 0.95.

If I don't do the test I think I'll put it at 197, try a few tough sessions and see how I get on.

For those that use it, how often do you use it in the summer to replace rides?

My current routine at the moment is

Monday - 20-25 mile ride approx 1000-1300ft climb
Tues - rest
Wednesday 40-45miles usually around 2750-3kft climb
Thursday - 20 miles 1k ft climb
Friday - rest
Saturday - 80 miles (give or take) varying amount of hills
Sunday - easy 20 miles

I'm inclined to ditch the 40-45 mile ride and use this to do a tough session. I'm not that inclined to do a shorter session on the turbo, then ride 20 miles to work after that What do you think? I mainly bought it for winter but there's no denying if I use trainerroad I'd get quicker, sooner. I also have bought a subscription for virtual trainer for riding virtual routes.....but I found 1 problem, the 26T gear 1 isn't light enough for some hills, so I may swap the cassette before using that!

The only problem I can see with ERG mode at the moment is that you're always at your perfect cadence, whereas that's not always the case on the bike going up steep inclines etc. But there's no denying it's a great way to get a good workout. I guess if you want to simulate hills then when the power increases then you can decrease your rpm and let the trainer match the power.

Many thanks again!

Edited by E65Ross on Monday 10th August 09:30

[E65Ross]

Sorry but got a couple of other questions....

I don't fancy doing a training plan on trainerroad because I do actually want to do the majority of my rides outside (certainly at the moment!). So for those of you who use trainerroad, do you just pick and choose any session depending on how you're feeling and what you fancy?

Also, if in ERG mode doing a hard session what happens if you can't match the power.... In the other modes you could just put it in an easy gear and spin lightly, but in ERG mode you can't do that? Just stop and pause it?

Cheers again.

[TonyHetherington]

During the winter, I did my best to stick to training plans that have a mon/wed/fri ride, to then do a Sunday big ride with my friends.

During the summer I typically pick a training plan, stick it on the wall in my garage and then cross off when I do a workout, then next time I come to it just do the next one. That way, they're all relative and related, but I'm not tying myself to 3 nights a week inside. So long as you're riding somewhere (outside or in) then it doesn't matter

[simonF10]

TonyHetherington said:

During the winter, I did my best to stick to training plans that have a mon/wed/fri ride, to then do a Sunday big ride with my friends.

During the summer I typically pick a training plan, stick it on the wall in my garage and then cross off when I do a workout, then next time I come to it just do the next one. That way, they're all relative and related, but I'm not tying myself to 3 nights a week inside. So long as you're riding somewhere (outside or in) then it doesn't matter

^^^ I do the same thing.

Regarding erg mode I normally just lower the intensity 5% or 10% if I am really in trouble. That's what I like about erg mode though there is no hiding from it. 100 rpm-70 rpm whatever you pedal at it keeps you honest.

As someone above pointed out make sure you have the latest firmware installed. My kickr initially read 30 watts above my p2max.

[Dixie]

I've just signed up to Trainerroad too. So far it seems really good although I've not had much time on it as of yet. I'd much rather be out on the bike if i get the chance but time is tight despite the sunny weather.

I did an 8 min test as my first work out, having previously managed 260w on a watt bike i guessed i'd be about 250 now as i'm not quite as fit as i was then. WRONG. 195w and i was nearly dying at that. I did fall off the rollers a couple of times too but i was straight back on them so i cant use that as an excuse.

The plan i chose has a test at the start and at the end so hopefully i'll see an improvement.

Rather than trying to guess if the test was wrong because of a rest and a hicup with the trainer just re take the test. It's the only way to be sure other than buying a power meter to use as another measure.

Despite not liking the number it's used with the plan to help you increase it. Just keep tryignto make it bigger.

[E65Ross]

Yeah I updated the firmware before I ever used it

Thanks guys

[simonk68]

Hang on, are you saying you did your test with the trainer in ERG mode? (or am I misunderstanding...)

If you did, you haven't really done an FTP test at all I'm afraid - just a decent workout at some arbitrary wattage.

Trainerroad should put your kickr into level mode for the whole portion of the test segment. You then need to go flat out for this period, and use your own judgement to control the effort, at whatever cadence you choose. If you did use ERG mode here, and finished the test, almost certainly you would have a power output below your FTP unless you'd magically guessed the correct number.

[simonk68]

Hang on, are you saying you did your test with the trainer in ERG mode? (or am I misunderstanding...)

If you did, you haven't really done an FTP test at all I'm afraid - just a decent workout at some arbitrary wattage.

Trainerroad should put your kickr into level mode for the whole portion of the test segment. You then need to go flat out for this period, and use your own judgement to control the effort, at whatever cadence you choose. If you did use ERG mode here, and finished the test, almost certainly you would have a power output below your FTP unless you'd magically guessed the correct number.

[E65Ross]

simonk68 said:

Hang on, are you saying you did your test with the trainer in ERG mode? (or am I misunderstanding...)

If you did, you haven't really done an FTP test at all I'm afraid - just a decent workout at some arbitrary wattage.

Trainerroad should put your kickr into level mode for the whole portion of the test segment. You then need to go flat out for this period, and use your own judgement to control the effort, at whatever cadence you choose. If you did use ERG mode here, and finished the test, almost certainly you would have a power output below your FTP unless you'd magically guessed the correct number.

Yes, for some reason trainerroad put the kickr in ERG mode..... However, I just about hung in there and really couldn't have gone much harder to be honest so I think the default value of 200 isn't far off!

I set trainerroad to level 0 before starting the workout so I could warm up at my own pace. Perhaps this is why it switched to ERG mode.... I'm not sure. But you can see from the graph that ERG mode was not used for the 5 minute interval, so quite why it was for the 20 minute test I have no idea. But yes, the default value probably wasn't far off. Hand on heart I don't think I could have gone any harder, the fact I hung in there suggests 200 isn't far off. Because the trainer moved (I've ordered the wahoo mat to help prevent this) I did get about 2mins off the bike, if that, which meant I had some recovery..... But I was also cycling on tired legs.

So based on this I'd say I wouldn't be too far off settings the FTP at 197.

[simonk68]

E65Ross said:

Yes, for some reason trainerroad put the kickr in ERG mode..... However, I just about hung in there and really couldn't have gone much harder to be honest so I think the default value of 200 isn't far off!

I set trainerroad to level 0 before starting the workout so I could warm up at my own pace. Perhaps this is why it switched to ERG mode.... I'm not sure. But you can see from the graph that ERG mode was not used for the 5 minute interval, so quite why it was for the 20 minute test I have no idea. But yes, the default value probably wasn't far off. Hand on heart I don't think I could have gone any harder, the fact I hung in there suggests 200 isn't far off. Because the trainer moved (I've ordered the wahoo mat to help prevent this) I did get about 2mins off the bike, if that, which meant I had some recovery..... But I was also cycling on tired legs.

So based on this I'd say I wouldn't be too far off settings the FTP at 197.

Might well not be far off, but I'd suggest a re-test in a few weeks once you've done a few workouts. If you've no idea what your FTP is to start with it can be a bit of a chicken and egg thing to decide what number to aim for! A few workouts will start to give you a rough idea of what you can hang on to. When starting from a break I tend to re-test fairly soon after restarting once the cobwebs are blown away.

[E65Ross]

Yeah think that's what I'll do. Not sure I fancy another test just yet!

Not sure about Wednesday yet.... Session on the turbo or longer ride into work! Decisions!