Any of the current crop of small cars actually fun to drive?

Any of the current crop of small cars actually fun to drive?

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Discussion

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
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If you're worried about mpg, a remap might just complicate matters. Power comes from fuel smile

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
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AlexC1981 said:
Useful info on the Twingo, thanks. Can you tell me what rpm is does at 70mph? Have you ever considered getting a remap? Superchips say they get an extra 18bhp and 28nm for £320. I would be tempted!

I just so happened to pass a dealer today with a 2003 MINI Cooper 1.6 and a 2009 Swift 1.3. I know the Swift Sport interior would have a few upgrades over the one I saw, but I have to say the pre-2012 interior is nowhere near as nice as the current one.

I'm still not sure on the MINI. The one I saw was 8 years older than the one I would buy, but I was not particularly impressed with the acres of silver painted plastic. I like the retro knobs and wiper controls. Not sure about the massive speedometer in the middle of the dashboard. It all looked a bit plasticy. I'll need to see a more up-to-date model I think.

I was a bit harsh in my criticism of the Polo interior in the photo above. It looks better than the cars I saw today.
Just a word on the Mini speedo - on my old Cooper S I specced the Rev counter and speedo on the driver's side by ordering the Chrono pack ( extra gauges in the normal speedo position - also if you have satnav in the centre speedo position I think you may get a speedo in front of you ). Worth checking as neither were uncommon options

Noesph

1,148 posts

148 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
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AlexC1981 said:
Useful info on the Twingo, thanks. Can you tell me what rpm is does at 70mph? Have you ever considered getting a remap? Superchips say they get an extra 18bhp and 28nm for £320. I would be tempted!

I just so happened to pass a dealer today with a 2003 MINI Cooper 1.6 and a 2009 Swift 1.3. I know the Swift Sport interior would have a few upgrades over the one I saw, but I have to say the pre-2012 interior is nowhere near as nice as the current one.

I'm still not sure on the MINI. The one I saw was 8 years older than the one I would buy, but I was not particularly impressed with the acres of silver painted plastic. I like the retro knobs and wiper controls. Not sure about the massive speedometer in the middle of the dashboard. It all looked a bit plasticy. I'll need to see a more up-to-date model I think.

I was a bit harsh in my criticism of the Polo interior in the photo above. It looks better than the cars I saw today.
I might be of some help. But, bear in mind my driving is London start stop, about 8.5 miles / 30 minute trips to work, in a rush etc. I'm probably the worst example for mpg. Mine is generally running around 30 mpg, and that's over 2 years, 12,000 miles with the car. I started a fuelly account around christmas time.

http://www.fuelly.com/car/renault/twingo/2009/noes...

When it did go on a motorway trip it did get 45mpg. I believe the twingo and the clio might have different ratio gearboxes (Around 2010 the clio tce changed its ratios anyway).

Plenty of comments on the subject here.

http://www.forum-auto.com/marques/renault/sujet618...

http://www.forum-auto.com/marques/renault/sujet309...

Edited by Noesph on Wednesday 26th August 21:18

white_goodman

4,042 posts

190 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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AlexC1981 said:
I booked the day off to recover from V Festival hehe It was raining all morning and I hoped it would have stopped by the afternoon. It didn't, it got heavier and I got wet and got to drive through some giant puddles. I'm not buying until I get paid at the end of the month anyway, possibly end of September if I buy at the high end of my budget.

I visited the Suzuki dealership first, and wow! The Swift Sport is really nice. It felt right from the moment I sat in it. Sporty, modern, stylish and well put together. The gearbox felt precise, if rather stiff to get in gear. This was a current model which they started making in 2012. They cost about £7500. A 2011 model is about £1000 cheaper, but has inferior stats (123bhp, 148Nm, 1105Kg, 8.6/8.9 sec. 5-speed. 40Mpg) and a not so nice interior, though I haven't seen the older model interior in the plastic yet.

Just over the road is the Citroen dealership. The DS3 comes with a range of interior styles, all different levels of minging. They look good in photos, but so garish and OTT in real life. The throw of the gear lever felt a bit long, but felt otherwise ok. The DS3 suggestion is a good one despite the above. I wrongly assumed a d-sport would be a diesel, but it's actually a 1.6 turbo. The 1.6 VTI also sounds very capable. Pertinent stats below:

DS3 1.6 dsport. 150bhp, 240Nm, 1090kg 2940x1715 7.3 sec 0-60, 48mpg, £180 tax, insurance group 22. Approx £7500. Real World 39.1mpg £1738.21 years fuel. Handling reviewed as on par with MINI/Ibiza/Colt. Chipping gets +42bhp +55nm. Wowsers!

DS3 1.6 Vti 118bhp, 160Nm, 1075kg, 3948x1715mm, 9.6 sec 0-60, 50mpg £1573.24 fuel. Approx £7500. £130 tax. Real world 43.2mpg 109.76bhp/t, 148.8Nm/t.

Five minutes along the road takes us to the Kia dealership. Picanto looks like a solid little car. Quite striking externally, but rather uninspiring inside. Something inside gave away the fact it is a cheap car, but I can't put my finger on what.

I drove to a 2nd hand car dealer that had an old style swift, but couldn't find it confused gave up after 20 minutes of driving around.

Onward to the Seat dealership. They didn't have the Ibiza coupe, but they had the 5 door 1.2 tsi FR. Not bad, but the heater knobs creak when you grasp them. It wasn't bad at all and it somehow had a big car feel to it. It did have a surprisingly large boot. It was fine really, but not as nice as the Swift Sport and a bit "meh". I had a look in a Leon while I was there and that definitely felt a step up in quality over the Ibiza.

I didn't get to test drive anything unfortunately, but how much leeway can you get to test the handling of a car from a dealer you are not going to buy from anyway?

Next weekend I will have to find a Twingo, Mazda 2, pre-2012 Swift and possibly a Colt, Polo TSI and a MINI. I don't think I will have any surprises from the Twingo as it's a Renault of the same era as my own. The Mazda 2 is worth reconsidering. Now I have done the fuel cost calculations and also taken into account real world economy, the fact that I can buy one for £1500-£2000 less than a Swift Sport is quite significant. It handles well according to reviews, but it's noisy at speed and only has a 5-speed which is a bit poor.

There is something about the MINI that is so "look at me in my MINI!" hehe I can't quite come around to the idea of owning one at the moment, but I'm going to see one to see if it changes my mind, as undoubtedly it is very capable from everything I've read.
It kind of sounds like you're pretty smitten with the Swift Sport, so maybe that's what you should get? If it feels right, then it probably is right! I would urge you to drive one though. A good friend has the old-shape Swift Sport and loves it. It's a great car. His only criticism would be engine noise on the motorway (down to gearing) and a hard ride. Unlike other manufacturers (ahem, Renault), Suzuki have actually addressed the few criticisms of the first-gen car i.e. given it a 6-speed box, better ride, as well as a dash more power and a few extra toys. I think it may even be lighter than the old one! They have done this without detracting from anything that made the first-gen good, such as chasing higher numbers by adding a turbocharger. I still think if running costs are really important to you, that a
1.2 Swift would be a great option and almost as much fun (although no doubt if you test drive both, you will want the Sport)!

For my money, it would have to be something special to tempt me out of a company BMW i.e. although I dislike the term, something less "white goods" than a 1.2 litre shopping hatch. I get what you mean about the Picanto. I like Kias and the interior quality is actually pretty good, just something about the design is a bit plain and ordinary. For me, it would have to be something like the Swift Sport, Renaultsport Twingo, MINI Cooper/Cooper S or Abarth 500.

I don't really consider Renault and Reliability to be two words that go together but a Renaultsport Twingo may win me over with a test drive! I used to agree with you on the MINI. Early interiors looked a bit different but felt a bit cheap. However, the 2007 second-gen Cooper S I test drove earlier in the year had a lovely interior (much nicer than my boring Honda) and I didn't think it felt cheap at all! You would probably be looking at a second-gen MINI (2007-2013) and unfortunately there are a few issues, which put me off a bit. IMHO, they look and drive great and have considerably better performance and economy than first-gens but the Cooper S engine and I guess the Cooper engine (if it's just the same engine without the turbo) can have issues with coking, timing chain rattle and heavy oil consumption. I believe this engine was also used in the Peugeot 207 GTi and Citroen DS3. Try one out though and see if you like it and negotiating 12 months warranty into the price might give you some extra peace of mind! IMHO, they look pretty good and less shouty in more subtle colours like black or gunmetal grey too.

I'm wondering why an Abarth 500 isn't on your shortlist?

135bhp, 206Nm, 1035kg, 0-60mph in 7.6s and 47mpg.

They look much "tougher" than the regular 500 in the same way as the mk1 Ford Sportka looked a lot "tougher" than the regular Ka and with some simple tweaking, an easy 160bhp is for the taking. They're great cars too by all accounts.

If you really hate the looks of the 500 though, you can get the same engine in the Abarth Grande Punto with up to 178bhp but I think these are considerably rarer.

I'm not sure what your issue is with test drives. Unlike buying a new car from a leasing company, you're buying used, so if the car's in budget, why shouldn't you test drive it? I have test driven up to 9 vehicles when buying before and even borrowed some overnight. That doesn't make a test drive a commitment to buy. Time to test drive some cars now! wink

Edited by white_goodman on Friday 28th August 04:31

AlexC1981

Original Poster:

4,903 posts

216 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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Hi All byebye

Twingo's off the list due to 3500rpm at 70mph. I'm sure it's fine for a town car, but I do all motorway driving so it's not going to be suitable for reasons of economy and comfort. Thanks to the information and advice that was provided on it. The old Swift Sport does the same rpm at 70. My Laguna cruises comfortably at just 2000rpm and still has plenty of pull.

I'm really trying to keep costs under £7000 otherwise I could take the company car. So I havent really considered the Abarth cars as the newer models are £8000+. The 2012 Swift is my base car against which I judge all the others, but it is about £1500 more than I want to spend.

I am trying to convice myself to buy the Ibiza coupe 1.2tsi. I've seen two now. Reasonable speed, economy, handling (as reviewed) good pricing (£6500) and can be chipped for another 18bhp if I get bored. Decent torque and low down power too, but this might take away some of the fun factor. The FR trim looks best inside and out, but they are a bit more expensive. Overall the interior is rather serious and drab looking compared to Swift and Mazda 2. It does not look quite so nice from the outside either. It's all so very...'ok'

I'm going to see a Mazda 2 - 1.5 Sport today. From what I have read the handling is superb and it is fun to drive as you need to rev it high for maximum power and torque and makes for an involving drive. I wonder if that could get annoying eventually... I'll let you know what I think of the interior when I get back. It appears similar to the current Swift Sport inside, so I expect to like it, but we'll see. Similar pricing to the Ibiza.

I am also seeing a MINI One today. The MINI One has the same engine as the Cooper. The only difference is the amount the throttle opens, which is controlled by the ecu. A remap would give the same power + 10bhp, so this is something I am considering. I'll have to check the insurance as a remapped One might be more expensive than a standard Cooper. The Mini One is a bit more expensive to buy than the above options, but cheaper than a Cooper. Cooper prices are similar to the Swift, but I prefer the Swift. I actually like the Clubman (the one with the van doors), but they are heavier and more expensive.

white_goodman said:
I don't really consider Renault and Reliability to be two words that go together
It's normally ok, but this has been an exceptionally bad month for my Laguna! The cd player broke a few weeks back so now I am going to have to dismantle it to get my CDs out, then carefully put it back together and hope the radio still works! This week I have had to buy a new battery as it started boiling its acid and venting hydrogen - lots of it too, I was lucky it didn't blow up! It was 9 years old though, so pretty good really. Oh and yesterday I managed to brake the footrest in half. It's like it knows I don't want it any more.

Klippie

3,096 posts

144 months

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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white_goodman said:
It kind of sounds like you're pretty smitten with the Swift Sport, so maybe that's what you should get? If it feels right, then it probably is right! I would urge you to drive one though. A good friend has the old-shape Swift Sport and loves it. It's a great car. His only criticism would be engine noise on the motorway (down to gearing) and a hard ride. Unlike other manufacturers (ahem, Renault), Suzuki have actually addressed the few criticisms of the first-gen car i.e. given it a 6-speed box, better ride, as well as a dash more power and a few extra toys. I think it may even be lighter than the old one! They have done this without detracting from anything that made the first-gen good, such as chasing higher numbers by adding a turbocharger. I still think if running costs are really important to you, that a
1.2 Swift would be a great option and almost as much fun (although no doubt if you test drive both, you will want the Sport)!

For my money, it would have to be something special to tempt me out of a company BMW i.e. although I dislike the term, something less "white goods" than a 1.2 litre shopping hatch. I get what you mean about the Picanto. I like Kias and the interior quality is actually pretty good, just something about the design is a bit plain and ordinary. For me, it would have to be something like the Swift Sport, Renaultsport Twingo, MINI Cooper/Cooper S or Abarth 500.

I don't really consider Renault and Reliability to be two words that go together but a Renaultsport Twingo may win me over with a test drive! I used to agree with you on the MINI. Early interiors looked a bit different but felt a bit cheap. However, the 2007 second-gen Cooper S I test drove earlier in the year had a lovely interior (much nicer than my boring Honda) and I didn't think it felt cheap at all! You would probably be looking at a second-gen MINI (2007-2013) and unfortunately there are a few issues, which put me off a bit. IMHO, they look and drive great and have considerably better performance and economy than first-gens but the Cooper S engine and I guess the Cooper engine (if it's just the same engine without the turbo) can have issues with coking, timing chain rattle and heavy oil consumption. I believe this engine was also used in the Peugeot 207 GTi and Citroen DS3. Try one out though and see if you like it and negotiating 12 months warranty into the price might give you some extra peace of mind! IMHO, they look pretty good and less shouty in more subtle colours like black or gunmetal grey too.

I'm wondering why an Abarth 500 isn't on your shortlist?

135bhp, 206Nm, 1035kg, 0-60mph in 7.6s and 47mpg.

They look much "tougher" than the regular 500 in the same way as the mk1 Ford Sportka looked a lot "tougher" than the regular Ka and with some simple tweaking, an easy 160bhp is for the taking. They're great cars too by all accounts.

If you really hate the looks of the 500 though, you can get the same engine in the Abarth Grande Punto with up to 178bhp but I think these are considerably rarer.
I'm not sure what your issue is with test drives. Unlike buying a new car from a leasing company, you're buying used, so if the car's in budget, why shouldn't you test drive it? I have test driven up to 9 vehicles when buying before and even borrowed some overnight. That doesn't make a test drive a commitment to buy. Time to test drive some cars now! wink

Edited by white_goodman on Friday 28th August 04:31
I imagine he's happy to test drive them all but if my experiences of buying new and second-hand cars are anything to go by the difficulty is in persuading people to offer a decent test drive at all. Most seem to think a run round the block at sub 30 mph tell you everything you need to know. Only once have I been offered a car for a day and told to see what I think of it. Perhaps that happens more as the car becomes more expensive? I don't know

AlexC1981

Original Poster:

4,903 posts

216 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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I drove the Mazda 2 earlier. It felt so light, alive and sharp, it really tempts to rev it high and chuck it into corners. In terms of acceleration it was fine up to 60mph, but so slow beyond that. The interior was ok, not quote as good as I had hoped, but acceptable. The engine was quiet at speed, but there was quite a lot of tyre noise.

I saw a MINI One today and booked a test drive for tomorrow. The MINI is slightly down on bhp, but up on torque. Based on my Mazda 2 drive today, I might have disregarded the MINI One due to similar power levels but for an extra 38bhp being within very easy reach by remapping. I was very impressed with the quality of the MINI. Very nice inside and well put together. The sound system was much better than the Mazda's as well - the reviews don't tell you this sort of thing.

I have decided to eliminate the Mazda 2. I seem to be eliminating all the cheap options from my short-list eek The Ibiza TSI is the last cheap option. I'm going to drive that next week and if I don't like it, it will be between the MINI and the Swift and I will have to up my budget!

AlexC1981

Original Poster:

4,903 posts

216 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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Drove the MINI One today. It lacked the sharpness of the Mazda 2, but felt a bit more planted. Overall, I preferred the drive of the Mazda. Shame Mazda don't make a 2 with a more powerful engine.

I drove an older Swift 1.5GLX, which considering it wasn't a proper Sport handled quite nicely. Somewhere between the Mazda 2 and the MINI. The sound system wasnt too bad either, though inferior to the MINI. I am hoping to see a proper Swift Sport tomorrow and I am booked for the Ibiza 1.2TSI on Tuesday after work.

white_goodman

4,042 posts

190 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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AlexC1981 said:
Drove the MINI One today. It lacked the sharpness of the Mazda 2, but felt a bit more planted. Overall, I preferred the drive of the Mazda. Shame Mazda don't make a 2 with a more powerful engine.

I drove an older Swift 1.5GLX, which considering it wasn't a proper Sport handled quite nicely. Somewhere between the Mazda 2 and the MINI. The sound system wasnt too bad either, though inferior to the MINI. I am hoping to see a proper Swift Sport tomorrow and I am booked for the Ibiza 1.2TSI on Tuesday after work.
Good work smile

AlexC1981

Original Poster:

4,903 posts

216 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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The deal is done. I collect next week. smile



It's a 2012 Seat Ibiza Sportcoupe 1.2 TSI Sportrider. Long name! I was impressed with it on the test drive, so after sleeping on it, I signed the paperwork today.

I was initially hoping for one with the FR spec, but the Sportrider spec is very similar. The 1.2 tsi outputs the same power and they both have sports suspension. The FR has more sporty styling (red stitching, twin chrome exhaust, FR badges). The Sportrider gains more toys (climate control, parking sensors, start/stop tech). Mine is just prior to the 2012 facelift which gets new bumpers, lights and radio, but I am quite happy with the older styling. 6-speaker radio sounded reasonable, which is quite important as it's the only source of entertainment on a long motorway run!

Not the most inspiring interior, but not bad either. I actually prefer the retro red glowing interior lights instead of the black and white look the facelifted model has. My Laguna interior lights are more similar to the facelift, so I am glad to have a change.

It looks just like this one I've googled:


I felt it steered very precisely and generally felt pretty good round the corners. Better than the Swift GLX and the MINI and similar to the Mazda 2. Time will tell after I get to take it out for a proper drive. I think that although a larger capacity NASP engine could have been more fun, when you are driving a car with only 105bhp you need that low down turbo torque for everyday convenience.

Once it's out of warranty I can remap it up to around 130bhp, which should give it similar performance to the Swift Sport.

It revs at 2600rpm at 70mph even though it only has 5 gears and it is definitely the quietest of the cars I test drove. If it was geared for lower rpm than that it would lack any sort of acceleration in 5th at motorway speeds, so 2600rpm seems a reasonable compromise.

Tax is only £30 annually and it is one of the more economical (both actual and the real world submitted figures) cars I considered.

The information you all provided to me was invaluable in helping me to weigh up the factors of handling, performance, tuning capability, practicality, reliability, running costs and purchase cost. So thank you very much for all the contributions, they were all extremely helpful. I have never done so much research into a car before buying.

I pick it up next week after it has been serviced, had a couple of dings fixed and the alloys refurbished. Can't wait! smile

Ghost91

2,964 posts

109 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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That looks nice, always nice when there's a follow up to these threads!

How much, if you don't mind me asking...?

Blayney

2,948 posts

185 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Congrats OP looks like a good choice.

edit - just for completeness. I am mostly motorway miles in my Twingo. It's fine wink I've done 86,500 miles in the car (it's done 103,500 in total) and never felt uncomfortable - even after the 6+ hours a particularly bad drive from Swansea to Nottingham took!

Edited by Blayney on Wednesday 2nd September 22:39

Kolbenkopp

2,343 posts

150 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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Nice reviews, going to be interesting to learn what came out on top.

AlexC1981 said:
Shame Mazda don't make a 2 with a more powerful engine.
Yeah agree, that is a crying shame IMO. Quite eager little thing, excellent weight but lacks a little bit of power. The 1.5 from the ND would be a nice match IMO. But somehow Mazda can't be arxed, current generation also no hot version :-/.




AlexC1981

Original Poster:

4,903 posts

216 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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The Twingo's certainly sound like a good little package and they are a real bargain as well.

The Ibiza was up for £6200 and has 40k miles on it. They agreed to take £200 off the Ibiza price and give me £500 for the Laguna. I look at it as £700 for the Laguna. I have had three other dealers offer me £500 and one offered me £900. I am not too disappointed with the trade in as it has a couple of issues that need sorting - cd multichanger broken, no dvd for the sat-nav, check hand brake light on, due a service and the bodywork has rear bumper crack and some scuffs. Alloys kerbed and quite badly corroded actually. It has done 129K miles and not many people are interested in a slightly tatty French rep-mobile with a reputation for being unreliable and high mileage, even though it does have a good spec and a very good engine.

I have had a very bad habit in past years of declining part/ex offers, then hanging on to cars for months until the battery runs down and the MOT expires, which ends up costing me more money. I'd rather just have it gone as I don't have space to keep three cars for any length of time anyway. I wonder how it would have fared as Shed of the Week hehe

The Ibiza is getting serviced and err..touched up before I collect plus a years warranty, so I think its a fair deal.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
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Good car at a reasonable price. Good work, OP.

white_goodman

4,042 posts

190 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
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Good work, enjoy and thanks for letting us know how you got on smile

gweaver

906 posts

157 months

Monday 12th October 2015
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Kolbenkopp said:
Yeah agree, that is a crying shame IMO. Quite eager little thing, excellent weight but lacks a little bit of power. The 1.5 from the ND would be a nice match IMO. But somehow Mazda can't be arxed, current generation also no hot version :-/.
I test drove a Mazda2 115ps yesterday - it's nice and responsive, but would benefit from more engine. The lack of turbo lag is a very big plus over competitors such as the Fiesta Ecoboost. Ride comfort was ok - not special, but better than most other warm hatches that I've tried. My rear seat passenger wasn't impressed with the ride, but is used to larger cars.
Under the bonnet it appears very well engineered and laid out - everything is accessible. The interior is ok, festooned with unnecessary gadgets, but lacking a proper rev counter. It's neither utilitarian or luxurious (even with leather). I think it's daft that you have to go to the top specification in order to have a measly 113hp.

If they dropped in the 2.0 from the 3/6/MX-5, stripped out the stupid gadgets and left the ride comfort and wheel sizes alone, it could be quite something - a sweet handling, brisk, frugal, practical, responsive N/A hatch. Almost like the best of the nineties, but with better safety and economy.