Are men afraid of transgender women?
Discussion
AJS- said:
Everyone sees the establishment as being against their side!
Maybe these methods are used, but there seems to be a bit emphasis on facilitating the belief rather than looking for underlying causes.
I don't pretend it's a completely unbiased source but this site has some very interesting reading:
http://4thwavenow.com/
Weather and species are perhaps a bit abstract. What about race? Or if an able bodied child decided they wished to be in a wheelchair? Should changing race or living as though disabled be facilitated too?
MMGW and saturated fats were two examples I was going to post, and decided not to for fear of opening up a whole new debate! The dramatic U turn on the causes of stomach ulcers is another interesting one.
Interesting site, thanks for posting it, but i don't see anything other then rhetoric from a grieving mother for her daughter lost to "the trans". Even the blog post from the psychiatrist has some 'issues' and none of it offers any alternatives, just denial.Maybe these methods are used, but there seems to be a bit emphasis on facilitating the belief rather than looking for underlying causes.
I don't pretend it's a completely unbiased source but this site has some very interesting reading:
http://4thwavenow.com/
Weather and species are perhaps a bit abstract. What about race? Or if an able bodied child decided they wished to be in a wheelchair? Should changing race or living as though disabled be facilitated too?
MMGW and saturated fats were two examples I was going to post, and decided not to for fear of opening up a whole new debate! The dramatic U turn on the causes of stomach ulcers is another interesting one.
I wonder if she has attended counseling with her child?
Bit of a thread resurrection, but I came across this earlier and wondered what your thoughts are?
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/woman-who-...
TLDR : A woman with normal eyesight suffering from "Body Integrity Identity Disorder" had herself blinded, with the help of a psychologist and some drain cleaner as she had always felt that she should have been blind.
To me it's quite clear - she had, and has, a mental problem, and the idea of "helping" her in this way is appalling. However, if you accept the argument that we can be who we define ourselves as regardless of our physical reality, and use medicine to achieve this then it's hard to see much wrong with it. This disorder also manifested itself in childhood, so again perhaps this should have been done decades ago before she was damaged by years of having normal vision?
Am I missing some fundamental difference here?
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/woman-who-...
TLDR : A woman with normal eyesight suffering from "Body Integrity Identity Disorder" had herself blinded, with the help of a psychologist and some drain cleaner as she had always felt that she should have been blind.
To me it's quite clear - she had, and has, a mental problem, and the idea of "helping" her in this way is appalling. However, if you accept the argument that we can be who we define ourselves as regardless of our physical reality, and use medicine to achieve this then it's hard to see much wrong with it. This disorder also manifested itself in childhood, so again perhaps this should have been done decades ago before she was damaged by years of having normal vision?
Am I missing some fundamental difference here?
AJS- said:
TLDR : A woman with normal eyesight suffering from "Body Integrity Identity Disorder" had herself blinded, with the help of a psychologist and some drain cleaner as she had always felt that she should have been blind.
To me it's quite clear - she had, and has, a mental problem, and the idea of "helping" her in this way is appalling.
In future we'll look at this 'help' in the same way (or worse) as we used to try to help gay people with drugs.To me it's quite clear - she had, and has, a mental problem, and the idea of "helping" her in this way is appalling.
Majority of Iranian 'woman' football team are pre-op!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3255922/Do...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3255922/Do...
Mr GrimNasty said:
Majority of Iranian 'woman' football team are pre-op!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3255922/Do...
MtoF gender reassignment is how Iran 'treats' male homosexuals thge alternative id prison or execution ..http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3255922/Do...
Fishtigua said:
but these are the same 'experts' who tell us that pink and dolls shouldn't be reserved just for girls as gender plays no part in what toys girls/boys like.... I am confused now (not that it takes a lot!!)I would say yes, I am afraid of them. I find them creepy and freaky!
I like real women (please don't start with the "how I define "real women" and all the science stuff etc).
I am not attracted to blokes or women who used to be blokes. No matter how much you protest, how much make up or hormones you take and want me to see you as "real" woman. I never will. (If you're a transgender, you probably don't care what I think and I don't care what you do with your body too).
I like real women (please don't start with the "how I define "real women" and all the science stuff etc).
I am not attracted to blokes or women who used to be blokes. No matter how much you protest, how much make up or hormones you take and want me to see you as "real" woman. I never will. (If you're a transgender, you probably don't care what I think and I don't care what you do with your body too).
Interestingly, I have direct experience of this with marked differences in how I managed to deal with it. And if seesm to depend how well you know the person before and in what capacity.
1. work colleague on a different shift pattern but that id worked with before and interacted with by handover regularly took a leave of absence and came back as a lady. It was a professional relationship we always had, and I just carried on regardless, it never seemed to be any issue apart from the odd joke and discussion about the mechanics of it all around the water cooler; Just seemed straightforward.
2. Handyman at house near where my mate lives. The guy is there a lot, most days, it is a big house, lots to do with an elderly owner. Seen the guy about a fair bit and interactied with him as he has a hobby that I am interested in. Known of this guy off and on for 10 years. Was over this summer and saw him, said "alright mate" and he replied, but something didn't look quite right. I was going to say something like "blimey that jumper makes you look like you've got a pair of tits!" as it did appear he had, when I saw my mate at his house, I mentioned it and he told me he is going through the change, on hormone treatment etc, pre op. As I don't really know him, and he looks pretty odd, (sorry, but he does, just a burly guy with boobs), it's quite awkward. I have heard he is no longer "Chris" he is now "Jenny", but I don't know how to speak to him. "Alright, fella" or "Alright, love" . it's really awkward as he clearly isn't yet a woman, and my interactions with him are irregular and colloquial.
It me who has the problem, but the boundaries are not defined, so I am concious of causing accidental offence. As a result, I am avoiding him at the moment, which is sad as he seems like a v. nice person.
1. work colleague on a different shift pattern but that id worked with before and interacted with by handover regularly took a leave of absence and came back as a lady. It was a professional relationship we always had, and I just carried on regardless, it never seemed to be any issue apart from the odd joke and discussion about the mechanics of it all around the water cooler; Just seemed straightforward.
2. Handyman at house near where my mate lives. The guy is there a lot, most days, it is a big house, lots to do with an elderly owner. Seen the guy about a fair bit and interactied with him as he has a hobby that I am interested in. Known of this guy off and on for 10 years. Was over this summer and saw him, said "alright mate" and he replied, but something didn't look quite right. I was going to say something like "blimey that jumper makes you look like you've got a pair of tits!" as it did appear he had, when I saw my mate at his house, I mentioned it and he told me he is going through the change, on hormone treatment etc, pre op. As I don't really know him, and he looks pretty odd, (sorry, but he does, just a burly guy with boobs), it's quite awkward. I have heard he is no longer "Chris" he is now "Jenny", but I don't know how to speak to him. "Alright, fella" or "Alright, love" . it's really awkward as he clearly isn't yet a woman, and my interactions with him are irregular and colloquial.
It me who has the problem, but the boundaries are not defined, so I am concious of causing accidental offence. As a result, I am avoiding him at the moment, which is sad as he seems like a v. nice person.
vkcs22 said:
I would say yes, I am afraid of them. I find them creepy and freaky!
I like real women (please don't start with the "how I define "real women" and all the science stuff etc).
I am not attracted to blokes or women who used to be blokes. No matter how much you protest, how much make up or hormones you take and want me to see you as "real" woman. I never will. (If you're a transgender, you probably don't care what I think and I don't care what you do with your body too).
an inherently transphobic post which seems ot confuse gender idenity, physical arrangement and sexuality ... I like real women (please don't start with the "how I define "real women" and all the science stuff etc).
I am not attracted to blokes or women who used to be blokes. No matter how much you protest, how much make up or hormones you take and want me to see you as "real" woman. I never will. (If you're a transgender, you probably don't care what I think and I don't care what you do with your body too).
you are right trans people don't care unless you mis-gender them or insist on referring to pre transition names etc ...( anyway what makes you think they'd fancy you anyway ? )
vkcs22 said:
I would say yes, I am afraid of them. I find them creepy and freaky!
Just how many have you met to form such a strong opinion? vkcs22 said:
I like real women (please don't start with the "how I define "real women" and all the science stuff etc).
What was the point of replying, then effectively covering your ears and saying 'la-la-la I can't hear you'? If you don't want a discussion, why bother?mph1977 said:
vkcs22 said:
I would say yes, I am afraid of them. I find them creepy and freaky!
I like real women (please don't start with the "how I define "real women" and all the science stuff etc).
I am not attracted to blokes or women who used to be blokes. No matter how much you protest, how much make up or hormones you take and want me to see you as "real" woman. I never will. (If you're a transgender, you probably don't care what I think and I don't care what you do with your body too).
an inherently transphobic post which seems ot confuse gender idenity, physical arrangement and sexuality ... I like real women (please don't start with the "how I define "real women" and all the science stuff etc).
I am not attracted to blokes or women who used to be blokes. No matter how much you protest, how much make up or hormones you take and want me to see you as "real" woman. I never will. (If you're a transgender, you probably don't care what I think and I don't care what you do with your body too).
you are right trans people don't care unless you mis-gender them or insist on referring to pre transition names etc ...( anyway what makes you think they'd fancy you anyway ? )
amusingduck said:
vkcs22 said:
I would say yes, I am afraid of them. I find them creepy and freaky!
Just how many have you met to form such a strong opinion? vkcs22 said:
I like real women (please don't start with the "how I define "real women" and all the science stuff etc).
What was the point of replying, then effectively covering your ears and saying 'la-la-la I can't hear you'? If you don't want a discussion, why bother?No one should be belittled or abused because of who they are however I struggle with the concept that there are people out there who claim to be gender neutral - so called 'non binary'/'genderqueer' people and therefore is this really an issue that needs to be tackled?
article said:
Transgender rights: MPs demand end to institutional transphobia
Casual everyday prejudice by doctors, teachers and the justice system against transgender people is the last bastion of acceptable institutional discrimination in Britain today, a landmark report has concluded.
The first-ever parliamentary inquiry into trans discrimination found “high levels of transphobia” across society, undermining the careers, life chances and health of over half a million people.
Casual everyday prejudice by doctors, teachers and the justice system against transgender people is the last bastion of acceptable institutional discrimination in Britain today, a landmark report has concluded.
The first-ever parliamentary inquiry into trans discrimination found “high levels of transphobia” across society, undermining the careers, life chances and health of over half a million people.
article said:
The report made over 30 recommendations including:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-rights-mps-demand-end-to-institutional-transphobia-a6810881.html- reducing from 18 to 16 the age limit for obtaining official recognition of a new gender without parents’ consent;
- mandatory training for police officers on transphobic hate crimes;
- introduction of the option to record gender as X in a passport, and removal of the requirement to show a doctor’s letter to alter the gender shown;
- action to prevent the “outing” of transgender people in court cases.
BlackLabel said:
No one should be belittled or abused because of who they are however I struggle with the concept that there are people out there who claim to be gender neutral - so called 'non binary'/'genderqueer' people and therefore is this really an issue that needs to be tackled?
Doesn't the first part of the highlight tell you why the second part of the sentence is needed?BlackLabel said:
No one should be belittled or abused because of who they are however I struggle with the concept that there are people out there who claim to be gender neutral - so called 'non binary'/'genderqueer' people and therefore is this really an issue that needs to be tackled?
I really struggle with the idea of non binary as well and I question how many of these people genuinely exist and how many are 'me too' special snowflakes that need a group identity but don't want to become an emo or whatever regular teenagers do. I do my best to treat everyone how I want to be treated and to take people as I find them and I believe most other Brits are tolerant and also have this kind of approach to life in general. However I'm a bit fed up with all these labels such as 'homophobic', 'transphobic', 'islamophobic', etc. It somehow seems to imply that crime or discrimination against one group of people is worse or more politically important than those same actions committed against 'normal' (for want of a better word / description) people. The labels themselves become terms of abuse used to shut down debate and silence people who often meant no offence and have done little wrong apart from failing to understand and adhere to the latest politically correct terminology.
I have no particular issue with the other things they are discussing in the article. Lowering the age from 18 to 16 seems reasonable if it ties in with other age of majority type issues. I mean I would be quite shocked if a 16 or 17 year old couldn't obtain medical treatment (hormones or whatever) without parental consent? And unless it is relevant to the crime I don't see why it would be necessary to disclose this kind of issue in court - it seems like something that would only be used in a cynical attempt to shame and discredit a victim, defendant or witness.
I don't think I'm scared of transgender women, although I do find it hard to understand and to put it quite bluntly I tend to agree with Germaine Greer's 'transphobic' rant
which was basically along the lines of MtF trans men are not women and don't behave/sound/look like women. Although I will say post op and hormone FtM tend to be more convincing in terms of 'passing', at least physically anyway.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/germaine-...
Edited by VolvoT5 on Thursday 14th January 16:16
BlackLabel said:
No one should be belittled or abused because of who they are however I struggle with the concept that there are people out there who claim to be gender neutral - so called 'non binary'/'genderqueer' people and therefore is this really an issue that needs to be tackled?
Christ, Margaret Beckett hasn't been looking after herself lately!article said:
Transgender rights: MPs demand end to institutional transphobia
Casual everyday prejudice by doctors, teachers and the justice system against transgender people is the last bastion of acceptable institutional discrimination in Britain today, a landmark report has concluded.
The first-ever parliamentary inquiry into trans discrimination found “high levels of transphobia” across society, undermining the careers, life chances and health of over half a million people.
Casual everyday prejudice by doctors, teachers and the justice system against transgender people is the last bastion of acceptable institutional discrimination in Britain today, a landmark report has concluded.
The first-ever parliamentary inquiry into trans discrimination found “high levels of transphobia” across society, undermining the careers, life chances and health of over half a million people.
article said:
The report made over 30 recommendations including:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-rights-mps-demand-end-to-institutional-transphobia-a6810881.html- reducing from 18 to 16 the age limit for obtaining official recognition of a new gender without parents’ consent;
- mandatory training for police officers on transphobic hate crimes;
- introduction of the option to record gender as X in a passport, and removal of the requirement to show a doctor’s letter to alter the gender shown;
- action to prevent the “outing” of transgender people in court cases.
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