No right turn, but did I turn right?

No right turn, but did I turn right?

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qualitystreet

Original Poster:

26 posts

131 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
https://goo.gl/maps/0Xlcq

Driving out of Maude St to continue straight ahead onto Sandes Avenue. I saw the No Right Turn sign, but assumed (incorrectly?) that it applied to turning into Stricklandgate. And I assumed (again, perhaps incorrectly) that straight ahead isn't a 'right turn' even though it crosses a lane of traffic.

I was told by my mate, who's local, that at does indeed apply to going straight on, and to expect a ticket in the post, but thankfully haven't received one so far.

Would I have a leg to stand on? It doesn't seem clear to me. A 'left turn only' (which is used if you approach the same junction from the North on Stricklandgate to stop people turning right into Maude St) would be clearer, no?

https://goo.gl/maps/ATOSr

james12345

590 posts

235 months

Friday 21st August 2015
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I would have expected a left turn only type arrow in the road - I think you're safe, especially as there's a left turn only coming from the other way.

But if you do get a ticket, I'm not paying it.

Type R Tom

3,859 posts

148 months

Friday 21st August 2015
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I would say the intention of the signs/lines would be to prevent cars etc. from entering the high street and straight on is fine. If you do get a ticket I think you’d have a strong case, based on what we can see on street view of course. If unsure contact the highways department and request the traffic orders for the area (if they get arsey use FoI but a friendly email first is better), have a read and that will tell you all you need to know.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 21st August 2015
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If you were not supposed to go straight on, why is there keep clear markings in the oncoming lane to stop traffic blocking the straight ahead option???

IANAL

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
Has anyone looked at the link the op posted?

It clearly says do not turn RIGHT at the junction. Just because the road you are entering happens to be on a bend, does not mean it isn't a right turn. To road on the right hand side has nothing to do with it, as it is impossible to enter that road, without turning right onto the main road first.

So there is no "straight on" at that junction, only left or right. Also if you note, to turn right (aka straight on) you'll have to cross over some red cross hatching.

Can't see any camera's on the links, so unless a mobile unit spotted you, I suspect no ticket. But it's crystal clear on it's meaning.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
Skodasupercar said:
If you were not supposed to go straight on, why is there keep clear markings in the oncoming lane to stop traffic blocking the straight ahead option???

IANAL
The Keep Clear is presumably there to allow cars from the road on the right to turn left on the main road, as they may want to do a 2nd left straight away to come down the road the op was travelling up.

qualitystreet

Original Poster:

26 posts

131 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
The Keep Clear is presumably there to allow cars from the road on the right to turn left on the main road, as they may want to do a 2nd left straight away to come down the road the op was travelling up.
They can also turn right onto the main road (Sandes Avenue), unless I'm missing something

Edited by qualitystreet on Friday 21st August 16:12

HarryW

15,150 posts

268 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
I'm in the going straight on is OK camp, the signs when coming from the left make it clear only buses can go that way.

qualitystreet

Original Poster:

26 posts

131 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
Thanks all. I'm glad it's not just me that thinks it's confusing. I was expecting to come back from holiday to a ticket, but it's been over a month now, so I think I'm safe.

I get 300bhp/ton's point that continuing straight ahead is 'like' a right turn, but I don't think the signage is clear enough. (I even thought to myself "Is that sign for me? No, obviously not, it's just to stop people trying do an awkward turn into that street on my right.")

My mate insists there's a CCTV camera (just outside Evans Cycles) and that his colleague has been done before.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
qualitystreet said:
They can also turn right onto the main road (Sandes Road), unless I'm missing something
That one I think you'd have more of a claim too. It doesn't appear to be signed, however to turn right you'd still have to cross the red cross hatched section, which is a no.

A sign explicitly stating no right turn, or left turn only would be better. But they might assume that as the cross hatching is obvious and established in front of the junction, then nothing else should be needed.

Having looked it up, I would still say no, probably no right turn:

Gov said:
Areas of white diagonal stripes or chevrons painted on the road. These are to separate traffic lanes or to protect traffic turning right.

If the area is bordered by a broken white line, you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so.
If the area is marked with chevrons and bordered by solid white lines you MUST NOT enter it except in an emergency.
Laws MT(E&W)R regs 5, 9, 10 & 16, MT(S)R regs 4, 8, 9 & 14, RTA sect 36 & TSRGD 10(1)
https://www.gov.uk/general-rules-all-drivers-riders-103-to-158/lines-and-lane-markings-on-the-road-127-to-132


300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
qualitystreet said:
Thanks all. I'm glad it's not just me that thinks it's confusing. I was expecting to come back from holiday to a ticket, but it's been over a month now, so I think I'm safe.

I get 300bhp/ton's point that continuing straight ahead is 'like' a right turn, but I don't think the signage is clear enough. (I even thought to myself "Is that sign for me? No, obviously not, it's just to stop people trying do an awkward turn into that street on my right.")

My mate insists there's a CCTV camera (just outside Evans Cycles) and that his colleague has been done before.
I'm sorry, but it IS a right turn. Straight on would require a cross roads.

This is an L shaped T junction, you can either turn left or right onto it.

Number 3 or number 6 are what this junction is. To go straight on, it would require it to be something like number 5.


mcdjl

5,438 posts

194 months

Friday 21st August 2015
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If that was a cross roads with give way lines on each entry to it, would you indicate to go the way the OP is talking about? I wouldn't, so would happily contend that what he wanted to do is fine. The give way on the floor appears to be extended past his exit point to allow him to do so. As he says if they want us to turn left, they clearly have used a left turn only sign on that junction from another angle, so do know what they're for.

balls-out

3,586 posts

230 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Has anyone looked at the link the op posted?

..... Also if you note, to turn right (aka straight on) you'll have to cross over some red cross hatching.

....
You are allowed to cross the hatching as it has dashed borders.....

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
balls-out said:
You are allowed to cross the hatching as it has dashed borders.....
As posted above from the Gov site:

"If the area is bordered by a broken white line, you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so."

I don't think wanting to turn right really counts as "necessary". Necessary would be unavoidable but not an emergency. You can easily avoid turning right by turning left.

Mill Wheel

6,149 posts

195 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
Technically, you are entering ONTO Sandes Avenue/Windermere Road, so "ahead" is a right turn, but the actual purpose of the sign was to prevent turning into Stricklandgate.
All the locals know this and go straight on with no censure!
If they wanted to stop you going straight ahead, there would be a TURN LEFT ONLY instruction.

The person responsible for Kendal's traffic system is universally regarded as a complete idiot, but his parents are big contributors to the party which holds a majority on South Lakeland District Council, so he is rarely censured for any of the numerous balls ups he has created.

Ahead of you on Sandes Avenue he had a pelican crossing, the effect of which was to gridlock traffic between the two sets of lights ahead and to the left on Windermere Road, so eventually they were taken away.
Coming from Windermere and wishing to enter Maude street or Stricklandgate, there is no right turn, so unless you can U-Turn around the corner on Sandes Avenue, you are forced to drive to the roundabout by the train station, through two sets of lights, then return through the same two sets in order to be able to turn left into Stricklandgate or go straight on into Maude Street!!

HarryW

15,150 posts

268 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
I'm sorry if the intent was to make you turn left only then there would be a white on blue arrow indicating left only as there is if you come from the left in the other picture...

Type R Tom

3,859 posts

148 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
As posted above from the Gov site:

"If the area is bordered by a broken white line, you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so."

I don't think wanting to turn right really counts as "necessary". Necessary would be unavoidable but not an emergency. You can easily avoid turning right by turning left.
Does necessary included buses?

Mill Wheel

6,149 posts

195 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Can't see any camera's on the links, so unless a mobile unit spotted you, I suspect no ticket. But it's crystal clear on it's meaning.




SPECSAVERS have branches all over the country - including one on Sticklandgate! biggrin
tongue out

qualitystreet

Original Poster:

26 posts

131 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
Mill Wheel said:
Coming from Windermere and wishing to enter Maude street or Stricklandgate, there is no right turn, so unless you can U-Turn around the corner on Sandes Avenue, you are forced to drive to the roundabout by the train station, through two sets of lights, then return through the same two sets in order to be able to turn left into Stricklandgate or go straight on into Maude Street
Ha. Or, if you get it wrong like I did, turn right past the bus station and do a full lap of the one-way system to get back to the same junction!

was8v

1,927 posts

194 months

Friday 21st August 2015
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Just because the road you are entering happens to be on a bend, does not mean it isn't a right turn.
I'd go with this. You made a right turn (crossing the flow of traffic). To go down the road to the right you would need to make 2x right turns.

The keep clear is for those coming from your right.

You should only turn left here.

However:

Mill Wheel said:
..... rarely censured for any of the numerous balls ups he has created.
This is the problem. Kendal is a nightmare of crazy traffic signs and rules and so is pretty much a free for all.

Don't expect a ticket.

Edited by was8v on Friday 21st August 16:53


Edited by was8v on Friday 21st August 16:54