Am I being mugged? Extra charges from the builder
Discussion
I am pretty sure I know the answer already but I am interested in opinions.
We have had an extension built over the garage, the room is 5m x 5m as part of the building work the garage underneath was rewired the room above was wired and newly built enclosed stair case was wired.
The builder quoted for the electrics within his initial quote, he estimated the price for all the electrical work as £1200.
As the build progressed we decided to up the spec and agreed with the builder to buy some of the fixtures, namely all the lights, and to pay the costs above the £1200 he quoted as he was sub contracting the work to a local firm. This was done verbally and everybody was happy.
The build is now complete (bare a few minor things) and as part of the final bill the builder has advised the electricians have put in a bill to him for £3200, so the builder is asking for his £1200 and the extra £2000. Bare in mind we have already paid £900 for all the lights. This brings the total bill to £4100.
The builder has provided an itemised bill form the electrician for all the parts they have supplied and then a bill for labour
The bill says they have used 650m cable and they have charged us for 96 hours labour which is 12 full days work. Other than the amount cable I don't have an issue with the parts part of the bill but I'd like to know peoples thoughts on the labour.
Over the rooms we have;
28 x sockets
30 x LED down lights
1 x dangling light in the loft
1 x smoke alarm
1 x heat alarm
switches for the lights in each room.
they supplied a new consumer unit which is in the garage (so no long runs for the cables)
The work was completed by them over two separate visits to the house first fix and final fix so they was no deal in labour hours due to access or routing cables.
If there is a resident sparky who could given an idea of realistic amount of labour involved that would be good but all comments are welcome.
We have had an extension built over the garage, the room is 5m x 5m as part of the building work the garage underneath was rewired the room above was wired and newly built enclosed stair case was wired.
The builder quoted for the electrics within his initial quote, he estimated the price for all the electrical work as £1200.
As the build progressed we decided to up the spec and agreed with the builder to buy some of the fixtures, namely all the lights, and to pay the costs above the £1200 he quoted as he was sub contracting the work to a local firm. This was done verbally and everybody was happy.
The build is now complete (bare a few minor things) and as part of the final bill the builder has advised the electricians have put in a bill to him for £3200, so the builder is asking for his £1200 and the extra £2000. Bare in mind we have already paid £900 for all the lights. This brings the total bill to £4100.
The builder has provided an itemised bill form the electrician for all the parts they have supplied and then a bill for labour
The bill says they have used 650m cable and they have charged us for 96 hours labour which is 12 full days work. Other than the amount cable I don't have an issue with the parts part of the bill but I'd like to know peoples thoughts on the labour.
Over the rooms we have;
28 x sockets
30 x LED down lights
1 x dangling light in the loft
1 x smoke alarm
1 x heat alarm
switches for the lights in each room.
they supplied a new consumer unit which is in the garage (so no long runs for the cables)
The work was completed by them over two separate visits to the house first fix and final fix so they was no deal in labour hours due to access or routing cables.
If there is a resident sparky who could given an idea of realistic amount of labour involved that would be good but all comments are welcome.
If the builder estimated £1200 and the bill is 3 x times this then surely he should be querying it with the sparky. £4k would cover a full house rewire, so yes I'd say he's not doing you any favours, 28 sockets and 30 spots is quite a bit of work though, that would normally be enough for a average 3 bed semi.
£1200 seems cheap to me. To first and second fix what you have said. Then I'm assuming add a new cu and run a new cable to it. Is that 28 sockets in the garage and a room above 5x5m ? Were you on site while this was ongoing ? Does 96 hours sound about right.
I'm guessing you are kicking yourself about not having the agreed costs written down.
I'm guessing you are kicking yourself about not having the agreed costs written down.
That amount of work was never going to be £1200.
A consumer unit change will be £4-500
Sockets and light fittings will be £40-50 a go, so that's min of £2320.
Plus other bits and bobs.
If you have supplied all the sockets and light fitting, then the electrician is having a bit of a laugh.
But the real issue is the builder has mislead you with his estimate.
A consumer unit change will be £4-500
Sockets and light fittings will be £40-50 a go, so that's min of £2320.
Plus other bits and bobs.
If you have supplied all the sockets and light fitting, then the electrician is having a bit of a laugh.
But the real issue is the builder has mislead you with his estimate.
dav123a said:
I'm guessing you are kicking yourself about not having the agreed costs written down.
In part but:Fab32 said:
The builder quoted for the electrics within his initial quote, he estimated the price for all the electrical work as £1200.
As the build progressed we decided to up the spec and agreed with the builder to buy some of the fixtures, namely all the lights, and to pay the costs above the £1200 he quoted as he was sub contracting the work to a local firm. This was done verbally and everybody was happy.
As you suggested in your opening post I think that you're stuffed due to that later agreement. If there had been no agreement you could have said along the lines of: "you quoted £1,200 for X amount of work and ended up doing 1.75 X so I propose to pay you 1.75 x X = £2,100."As the build progressed we decided to up the spec and agreed with the builder to buy some of the fixtures, namely all the lights, and to pay the costs above the £1200 he quoted as he was sub contracting the work to a local firm. This was done verbally and everybody was happy.
I read it that the total work is:
One 5x5 metre room
One garage (presumably similar size)
One stair case
One consumer unit.
28 Lights and
30 Sockets
When I had an extension I was charged £600 for the unit plus £50 per point (either light or socket) fully inclusive of labour and wire but not the lights and sockets themselves.
I would have been charged £3600 for that work on my house (plus vat if relevant?)
Sounds expensive but not piss-take.
One 5x5 metre room
One garage (presumably similar size)
One stair case
One consumer unit.
28 Lights and
30 Sockets
When I had an extension I was charged £600 for the unit plus £50 per point (either light or socket) fully inclusive of labour and wire but not the lights and sockets themselves.
I would have been charged £3600 for that work on my house (plus vat if relevant?)
Sounds expensive but not piss-take.
Thanks for the replies, just to be clear
The existing double garage is 5m x 5m
The room built on top is 5m x 5m
The loft surprise, surprise is also 5m x 5m
the 30 lights are all individual spot LEDs 12 in the garage ceiling, 12 in the games room ceiling and 6 up the new staircase. There is also a single light that dangles in the loft
The consumer unit wasn't changed they put a smaller unit next to the original one in the garage and ran all the new wiring to that.
The sockets are excessive but they are for specific purpose (NOT growing dope) so half the garage can be used as a studio, and the ones in the extension are for the cinema and gaming stuff.
the cable amount is not a typo they have billed us for 650m of cable, some of it is different ratings so I am assuming its just been put on as a full roll of each.
It's a tough spot to be in as the builder has been excellent, he's a local guy and has been going 30+ years, he obviously uses the local electrical firm who we have used before a few years ago for another job.
The existing double garage is 5m x 5m
The room built on top is 5m x 5m
The loft surprise, surprise is also 5m x 5m
the 30 lights are all individual spot LEDs 12 in the garage ceiling, 12 in the games room ceiling and 6 up the new staircase. There is also a single light that dangles in the loft
The consumer unit wasn't changed they put a smaller unit next to the original one in the garage and ran all the new wiring to that.
The sockets are excessive but they are for specific purpose (NOT growing dope) so half the garage can be used as a studio, and the ones in the extension are for the cinema and gaming stuff.
the cable amount is not a typo they have billed us for 650m of cable, some of it is different ratings so I am assuming its just been put on as a full roll of each.
It's a tough spot to be in as the builder has been excellent, he's a local guy and has been going 30+ years, he obviously uses the local electrical firm who we have used before a few years ago for another job.
If you don't have it already, ask for a breakdown as it's more than expected.
Looking at it though, it's really to the scale of a full house wiring job and then some - the building isn't big on plan, but it's 3 storeys with an awful lot of sockets, switches, etc. A typical "house rewire kit" would have 10 sockets and 8 pendants in it. (plus the other bits, obv.)
Say, £50 a light\socket\switch\detector to install and test, you've got 61 lights\sockets\detectors, plus say, 10 switches to control the lights.
That's £3550 already, without thinking too much about the Consumer unit install, labour to run the cable, etc.
Even if you said 30 minutes to install and test each second fix item, that's almost 36 hours there alone. (think about the setup of ceiling lights, and the moving about from place to place to do each one - it's not a 5 min job)
If you had a couple of sparks onsite, there's 6 eight hour days of labour stated.
It's a lot more than you discussed, I don't think it's totally ridiculous, though they may be laying it on a little as you didn't agree the prices upfront.
Looking at it though, it's really to the scale of a full house wiring job and then some - the building isn't big on plan, but it's 3 storeys with an awful lot of sockets, switches, etc. A typical "house rewire kit" would have 10 sockets and 8 pendants in it. (plus the other bits, obv.)
Say, £50 a light\socket\switch\detector to install and test, you've got 61 lights\sockets\detectors, plus say, 10 switches to control the lights.
That's £3550 already, without thinking too much about the Consumer unit install, labour to run the cable, etc.
Even if you said 30 minutes to install and test each second fix item, that's almost 36 hours there alone. (think about the setup of ceiling lights, and the moving about from place to place to do each one - it's not a 5 min job)
If you had a couple of sparks onsite, there's 6 eight hour days of labour stated.
It's a lot more than you discussed, I don't think it's totally ridiculous, though they may be laying it on a little as you didn't agree the prices upfront.
The problem is you changed what you wanted and neither you or your builder sat down and costed it.
As for pricing just go to screwfix or other suppliers and see how much the cost of cabling varies. I now one of our fitters won't use certain brands of cable as he just reckons its false economy to buy "cheap" cable.
As for pricing just go to screwfix or other suppliers and see how much the cost of cabling varies. I now one of our fitters won't use certain brands of cable as he just reckons its false economy to buy "cheap" cable.
Fab32 said:
It's a tough spot to be in as the builder has been excellent, he's a local guy and has been going 30+ years, he obviously uses the local electrical firm who we have used before a few years ago for another job.
What are you wanting from this thread?Did you just want to know if they are being reasonable or did you not want to pay that much and want to know whether you could reasonably?
As mentioned, it sounds like the price is a little high but not a pisstake.
In your shoes I would (and have) just expressed surprise at the amount, and that it was higher than expected and agreed and got him to cut it down a bit. If you like him and he has been good, it doesn't sound like your intention is to go out to get him.
I agree with Shtu, his calculations are correct. Each 'point' is around £50 (it's always priced that way £ per point, I've never been charged by the hour)
The amount of cable seems ok. 200m of T&E 1.5, 200m of 2.5, 100m BT, 100m coax, some 3 core, That's >600 already, Then add materials on top.
The amount of cable seems ok. 200m of T&E 1.5, 200m of 2.5, 100m BT, 100m coax, some 3 core, That's >600 already, Then add materials on top.
shtu said:
If you don't have it already, ask for a breakdown as it's more than expected.
Looking at it though, it's really to the scale of a full house wiring job and then some - the building isn't big on plan, but it's 3 storeys with an awful lot of sockets, switches, etc. A typical "house rewire kit" would have 10 sockets and 8 pendants in it. (plus the other bits, obv.)
Say, £50 a light\socket\switch\detector to install and test, you've got 61 lights\sockets\detectors, plus say, 10 switches to control the lights.
That's £3550 already, without thinking too much about the Consumer unit install, labour to run the cable, etc.
Even if you said 30 minutes to install and test each second fix item, that's almost 36 hours there alone. (think about the setup of ceiling lights, and the moving about from place to place to do each one - it's not a 5 min job)
If you had a couple of sparks onsite, there's 6 eight hour days of labour stated.
It's a lot more than you discussed, I don't think it's totally ridiculous, though they may be laying it on a little as you didn't agree the prices upfront.
All points taken on board.Looking at it though, it's really to the scale of a full house wiring job and then some - the building isn't big on plan, but it's 3 storeys with an awful lot of sockets, switches, etc. A typical "house rewire kit" would have 10 sockets and 8 pendants in it. (plus the other bits, obv.)
Say, £50 a light\socket\switch\detector to install and test, you've got 61 lights\sockets\detectors, plus say, 10 switches to control the lights.
That's £3550 already, without thinking too much about the Consumer unit install, labour to run the cable, etc.
Even if you said 30 minutes to install and test each second fix item, that's almost 36 hours there alone. (think about the setup of ceiling lights, and the moving about from place to place to do each one - it's not a 5 min job)
If you had a couple of sparks onsite, there's 6 eight hour days of labour stated.
It's a lot more than you discussed, I don't think it's totally ridiculous, though they may be laying it on a little as you didn't agree the prices upfront.
I have a breakdown of each individual part they have supplied and then a bill for 96 hours labour
The only point I'm not happy with on the parts bill is the 650m of cable they are charging me for, everything else is fine.
There are only 4 light switches one in the garage one the games room and two on the stairs (top and bottom).
how relevant is the comparison to a full house rewire? Given the fact that all the first fix was done when it was a shell so no access problems and the spot lights are not much over a meter apart?
Mousem40 said:
I agree with Shtu, his calculations are correct. Each 'point' is around £50 (it's always priced that way £ per point, I've never been charged by the hour)
The amount of cable seems ok. 200m of T&E 1.5, 200m of 2.5, 100m BT, 100m coax, some 3 core, That's >600 already, Then add materials on top.
The cable I am being charged for is;The amount of cable seems ok. 200m of T&E 1.5, 200m of 2.5, 100m BT, 100m coax, some 3 core, That's >600 already, Then add materials on top.
200m x 2.5mm twin and earth cable
250m x 1.5mm twin and earth cable
100m x 1.0 3core and earth cable
100m x 6.0 twin and earth
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