4000 people die within 6 weeks of being deemed "Fit to Work"
Discussion
Martin4x4 said:
A compentator on Radio 4 said this was '4 times' the rate for working age adults, Still rather vague but certainly enough to warrant further reporting and elaboration.
Is that an apt comparison?In the above case, those who have been signed off who then returned to work of their own volition would be a bit better as a comparison group.
What warrants further investigation is the abysmal level of partisan journalism on offer, and the quality of education in general when so many people swallow it.
otolith said:
crankedup said:
otolith said:
So these are the rules for terminal illness, which to be honest don't look unreasonable to me.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or...
Tick-boxes are what you get when you want decisions to be fair and objective and thus hard to argue with. I don't really see how you can get away from them in this sort of thing. If an assessment is just "In my professional opinion this claimant is fit for work" any appeal is going to result in their assessment being boiled down to a set of objective statements anyway.
I completely disagree with your assertion that 'tick boxes' are fair and objective. They are not when in the context of health judgements. Not even in most scenarios are tick boxes relevant in as much as the question framing can be misleading. Are you suggesting that a professional medical opinion is less important than a tick box yes/no piece of paper? Many did earlier in the assessment processes, hence the criticism and the need for Government to re-formulate the process. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or...
Tick-boxes are what you get when you want decisions to be fair and objective and thus hard to argue with. I don't really see how you can get away from them in this sort of thing. If an assessment is just "In my professional opinion this claimant is fit for work" any appeal is going to result in their assessment being boiled down to a set of objective statements anyway.
Is this what it comes down to, some pin stripe deciding a professional doctor is wrong? Lord help us.
Objective facts are the fruition of a detailed examination(s) the ticking of boxes is not really relevant, except perhaps for exclusions.
If a Doctor declares a person to be terminally ill the objective facts will be found in the medical notes, no need for more tick boxes. Further, in cases of terminal illness it is not one Doctor involved, it will be a series of skilled practitioners. Somewhat better qualified than some 'off the street' box ticker I suggest.
Following from personal family experience I can assure you that Doctors involved with such matters take a rather more serious attitude than your ''because I say so'' note.
However, if you want to believe box tickers are better placed to understand the medical and social implications of being diagnosed as terminally ill then carry on by all means. You may change your mind should you ever be in the situation of being terminally ill.
turbobloke said:
Martin4x4 said:
A compentator on Radio 4 said this was '4 times' the rate for working age adults, Still rather vague but certainly enough to warrant further reporting and elaboration.
Is that an apt comparison?In the above case, those who have been signed off who then returned to work of their own volition would be a bit better as a comparison group.
What warrants further investigation is the abysmal level of partisan journalism on offer, and the quality of education in general when so many people swallow it.
Terminal illness is a red herring, because that circumstance bypasses the assessment;
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or...
The box ticking exercise is the assessment of capacity to work.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or...
The box ticking exercise is the assessment of capacity to work.
crankedup said:
Indeed, Doctors should have been involved with the scheme, but they were not, in fact the Government went out of their way to avoid medical professionals.
rubbish all the people undertaking the examinatiosn are Health Professionals, with full unconditional registration, in fact having had a professional sanction within the last 5 years is a failure at the first hurdle in recruitment crankedup said:
Objective facts are the fruition of a detailed examination(s) the ticking of boxes is not really relevant, except perhaps for exclusions.
If a Doctor declares a person to be terminally ill the objective facts will be found in the medical notes, no need for more tick boxes. Further, in cases of terminal illness it is not one Doctor involved, it will be a series of skilled practitioners.
which is why there are special rules for terminal ilnnesses with very poor prognosis If a Doctor declares a person to be terminally ill the objective facts will be found in the medical notes, no need for more tick boxes. Further, in cases of terminal illness it is not one Doctor involved, it will be a series of skilled practitioners.
crankedup said:
Somewhat better qualified than some 'off the street' box ticker I suggest.
Following from personal family experience I can assure you that Doctors involved with such matters take a rather more serious attitude than your ''because I say so'' note.
However, if you want to believe box tickers are better placed to understand the medical and social implications of being diagnosed as terminally ill then carry on by all means. You may change your mind should you ever be in the situation of being terminally ill.
utter rubbish conveniently forgettign that the assessments are undertaken by health professionals Following from personal family experience I can assure you that Doctors involved with such matters take a rather more serious attitude than your ''because I say so'' note.
However, if you want to believe box tickers are better placed to understand the medical and social implications of being diagnosed as terminally ill then carry on by all means. You may change your mind should you ever be in the situation of being terminally ill.
however they do not make a decision on fitness or otherwise just provide a professional opinion based on the objective criteria in the assessment along with the other evidence provided by the applicant and their claim form ...
crankedup said:
turbobloke said:
Martin4x4 said:
A compentator on Radio 4 said this was '4 times' the rate for working age adults, Still rather vague but certainly enough to warrant further reporting and elaboration.
Is that an apt comparison?In the above case, those who have been signed off who then returned to work of their own volition would be a bit better as a comparison group.
What warrants further investigation is the abysmal level of partisan journalism on offer, and the quality of education in general when so many people swallow it.
crankedup said:
Join the real world before its to late.
Already here - and looking around, where are you? AWOL again presumably.mph1977 said:
failed the medical or failed to complete the claim properly and painted a far too rosy picture of their abilities in the assessment ?
In one instance that I won't forget, the assessor apologised for them having to come at all because of how obviously disabled they were. Sent them out after 10mins, and still failed them.Ahimoth said:
mph1977 said:
failed the medical or failed to complete the claim properly and painted a far too rosy picture of their abilities in the assessment ?
In one instance that I won't forget, the assessor apologised for them having to come at all because of how obviously disabled they were. Sent them out after 10mins, and still failed them.NicD said:
Not what I expected:
Quite a few suicides I believe. If you are ill, can't look after yourself easily then have no money to pay the bills and buy food.................I heard the other day that a cancer person who had less than six months, when told he was fit to work, said he may as well kill himself then now than live without money. Then killed himself.
I do so hope those ar**les who made such decisions can't sleep and night and see and hear the names/faces of those they have done this to.
Jasandjules said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well, it took a few court cases to get them to disclose anything, so I am guessing it does not show them in a good light and they knew it whilst lying through their teeth......NicD said:
Not what I expected:
The story of how one man died soon after DWP benefit tests found him 'fit to work'
Trevor Drakard – who had epilepsy from the age of six – killed himself after his incapacity benefit was stopped
A tragedy.The story of how one man died soon after DWP benefit tests found him 'fit to work'
Trevor Drakard – who had epilepsy from the age of six – killed himself after his incapacity benefit was stopped
In general, the idea that political incompetence can be lethal is a global concept.
http://english.cntv.cn/program/bizasia/20140208/10...
At the moment, in the UK, we don't kmow.
The system was designed to identify those who had some capacity for work, however limited, in order to move them off ESA and onto Jobseekers.
It is completely inappropriate as an assessment tool of those who are employed, but off sick.
My own experience is that I had to have some time off work for major surgery. It was further complicated by a post-surgical infection, so for a brief period of time I was on ESA - a benefit I have bloody paid for in 35 years of working my arse off, but that's another story.
The DWP assessors decided I was fit for work. But they are not determining whether one is fit for one's own employment, just some mythical job which presumably can be done by someone with only one arm and no legs.
But Occupational health and my surgeon said no way on earth - not fit to drive yet.
DWP advice - ''ask your employer about returning to work''
No sick pay, no entitlement to anything else.
Effectively, they starve you back to work. At least I got better eventually. The way they treat cancer patients is unspeakable.
It is completely inappropriate as an assessment tool of those who are employed, but off sick.
My own experience is that I had to have some time off work for major surgery. It was further complicated by a post-surgical infection, so for a brief period of time I was on ESA - a benefit I have bloody paid for in 35 years of working my arse off, but that's another story.
The DWP assessors decided I was fit for work. But they are not determining whether one is fit for one's own employment, just some mythical job which presumably can be done by someone with only one arm and no legs.
But Occupational health and my surgeon said no way on earth - not fit to drive yet.
DWP advice - ''ask your employer about returning to work''
No sick pay, no entitlement to anything else.
Effectively, they starve you back to work. At least I got better eventually. The way they treat cancer patients is unspeakable.
crankedup said:
turbobloke said:
Martin4x4 said:
A compentator on Radio 4 said this was '4 times' the rate for working age adults, Still rather vague but certainly enough to warrant further reporting and elaboration.
Is that an apt comparison?In the above case, those who have been signed off who then returned to work of their own volition would be a bit better as a comparison group.
What warrants further investigation is the abysmal level of partisan journalism on offer, and the quality of education in general when so many people swallow it.
Martin4x4 said:
crankedup said:
turbobloke said:
Martin4x4 said:
A compentator on Radio 4 said this was '4 times' the rate for working age adults, Still rather vague but certainly enough to warrant further reporting and elaboration.
Is that an apt comparison?In the above case, those who have been signed off who then returned to work of their own volition would be a bit better as a comparison group.
What warrants further investigation is the abysmal level of partisan journalism on offer, and the quality of education in general when so many people swallow it.
This nonsense has nothing to do with oppposing PoV, I've already said we need that, it's just clueless hacks and an under-educated gullible public.
TheSnitch said:
The system was designed to identify those who had some capacity for work, however limited, in order to move them off ESA and onto Jobseekers.
It is completely inappropriate as an assessment tool of those who are employed, but off sick.
My own experience is that I had to have some time off work for major surgery. It was further complicated by a post-surgical infection, so for a brief period of time I was on ESA - a benefit I have bloody paid for in 35 years of working my arse off, but that's another story.
The DWP assessors decided I was fit for work. But they are not determining whether one is fit for one's own employment, just some mythical job which presumably can be done by someone with only one arm and no legs.
But Occupational health and my surgeon said no way on earth - not fit to drive yet.
DWP advice - ''ask your employer about returning to work''
No sick pay, no entitlement to anything else.
Effectively, they starve you back to work. At least I got better eventually. The way they treat cancer patients is unspeakable.
Pleased you're recovering but it's a shame this post will be dismissed in the rush to discredit the artlicle and newspapers reporting it It is completely inappropriate as an assessment tool of those who are employed, but off sick.
My own experience is that I had to have some time off work for major surgery. It was further complicated by a post-surgical infection, so for a brief period of time I was on ESA - a benefit I have bloody paid for in 35 years of working my arse off, but that's another story.
The DWP assessors decided I was fit for work. But they are not determining whether one is fit for one's own employment, just some mythical job which presumably can be done by someone with only one arm and no legs.
But Occupational health and my surgeon said no way on earth - not fit to drive yet.
DWP advice - ''ask your employer about returning to work''
No sick pay, no entitlement to anything else.
Effectively, they starve you back to work. At least I got better eventually. The way they treat cancer patients is unspeakable.
A disgusting tale from a disgusting minister and a disgusting government.
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