4000 people die within 6 weeks of being deemed "Fit to Work"
Discussion
legzr1 said:
A disgusting tale from a disgusting minister and a disgusting government.
To seek to pick on the weakest in society - those who are seriously ill - is the work of cowards, and just scum really. A pity that is what we have in power, and a tragedy that in an enlightened age people support such conduct.legzr1 said:
TheSnitch said:
The system was designed to identify those who had some capacity for work, however limited, in order to move them off ESA and onto Jobseekers.
It is completely inappropriate as an assessment tool of those who are employed, but off sick.
My own experience is that I had to have some time off work for major surgery. It was further complicated by a post-surgical infection, so for a brief period of time I was on ESA - a benefit I have bloody paid for in 35 years of working my arse off, but that's another story.
The DWP assessors decided I was fit for work. But they are not determining whether one is fit for one's own employment, just some mythical job which presumably can be done by someone with only one arm and no legs.
But Occupational health and my surgeon said no way on earth - not fit to drive yet.
DWP advice - ''ask your employer about returning to work''
No sick pay, no entitlement to anything else.
Effectively, they starve you back to work. At least I got better eventually. The way they treat cancer patients is unspeakable.
Pleased you're recovering but it's a shame this post will be dismissed in the rush to discredit the artlicle and newspapers reporting it It is completely inappropriate as an assessment tool of those who are employed, but off sick.
My own experience is that I had to have some time off work for major surgery. It was further complicated by a post-surgical infection, so for a brief period of time I was on ESA - a benefit I have bloody paid for in 35 years of working my arse off, but that's another story.
The DWP assessors decided I was fit for work. But they are not determining whether one is fit for one's own employment, just some mythical job which presumably can be done by someone with only one arm and no legs.
But Occupational health and my surgeon said no way on earth - not fit to drive yet.
DWP advice - ''ask your employer about returning to work''
No sick pay, no entitlement to anything else.
Effectively, they starve you back to work. At least I got better eventually. The way they treat cancer patients is unspeakable.
legzr1 said:
A disgusting tale from a disgusting minister and a disgusting government.
It's not good to read about such incompetence in officialdumb.No doubt you will be in shock over the vast incompetence of both Labour's and the Conservatives' approach to the non-problem of non-existent manmade global warming, which has been killing pensioners in severe winters. These are vulnerable people who choose to heat or eat and after eating can't afford to hear their homes adequately due to the cost of pointless greenism. It's tricky to recover and work when you're a dead pensioner, having (probably) worked a working life already.
Although considered a relatively mild winter, with late January and February temperatures above average, the devastatingly cold weather experienced from late November through to early January saw the number of deaths rise above the national average, peaking during the first week of January 2011 with almost 3500 more deaths than the five-year average for that time of year.
The UK’s leading fuel poverty charity National Energy Action (NEA), which is this week launching its Warm Homes Campaign with energy company E.ON, will be publishing a report illustrating ‘The Many Faces of Fuel Poverty’, showing the range of people that are impacted by living in cold homes, and offering strong practical information at a community and neighbourhood level on where households can get advice and help, including how to access grants for free home insulation, reduced energy tariffs and special payments.
NEA said:
NEA is warning that a combination of high energy prices, low incomes and poor heating and insulation standards will continue to pose a serious threat to the health of millions of people, especially pensioners, during the coming months.
Jenny Saunders, Chief Executive at NEA said: “This number of excess winter deaths was sadly expected. The figures emphasise that fuel poverty is killing our most vulnerable citizens. Last December was the coldest on record and the spells of severe weather combined with high energy prices had a devastating effect.
That situation is getting worse, the average household electricity bill is expected to rise from £590 (2014) to £927 (2030) purely due to the green blob.Jenny Saunders, Chief Executive at NEA said: “This number of excess winter deaths was sadly expected. The figures emphasise that fuel poverty is killing our most vulnerable citizens. Last December was the coldest on record and the spells of severe weather combined with high energy prices had a devastating effect.
NB: I don't want to derail the thread along climate lines, the above comment and the extract below it come with no intent beyond making the point that it's very unlikely that Labour set out to enact policy 1997-2010 in order to kill frail pensioners, and equally unlikely that the Conservatives thought it was a great idea and stuck with it.
In the context of this thread, hype about disgusting governments is misplaced - governments aren't evil. It's 50 shades of incompetence.
Having already posted that what's needed is full disclosure of the data and a credible analysis (Briggs) there's nothing to add.
Jasandjules said:
To seek to pick on the weakest in society - those who are seriously ill - is the work of cowards, and just scum really. A pity that is what we have in power, and a tragedy that in an enlightened age people support such conduct.
Well said.All we need now is a post to divert away from the sickening decisions of ATOS and its current successor - maybe global warming?...
legzr1 said:
Jasandjules said:
To seek to pick on the weakest in society - those who are seriously ill - is the work of cowards, and just scum really. A pity that is what we have in power, and a tragedy that in an enlightened age people support such conduct.
Well said.legzr1 said:
All we need now is a post to divert away from the sickening decisions of ATOS and its current successor - maybe global warming?...
No we don't, there was no intent, and that's exactly what I said should not happen. I even put the NB in bold so that you would have to deliberately miss it, and you did, well done.Your biased transparent rhetorical devices are transparent and biased.
I noticed your NB described your diversion as a non-diversion.
As for the rest - you label it incompetence and dress it up all you like, I'm comfortable with a 'cynical and deliberate ploy attacking some of the most vulnerable in our society'.
Only the Tories would even contemplate such things.
As for the rest - you label it incompetence and dress it up all you like, I'm comfortable with a 'cynical and deliberate ploy attacking some of the most vulnerable in our society'.
Only the Tories would even contemplate such things.
I will give Labour this. Prolifigate as they were/are, they were prone to splashing cash on things like:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12412782.First_...
Which indicates at least a desire to *actually figure out* why the lower classes struggle and what can be done to help them. The Tories have always seemed to feel that they already had all the answers and the solution was to hurt people until they came around..
Both New Labour and Not-Really-Conservative-Tory Light seem to hover around the same status quo of actual position on things, but their origin of thought seems vastly different.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12412782.First_...
Which indicates at least a desire to *actually figure out* why the lower classes struggle and what can be done to help them. The Tories have always seemed to feel that they already had all the answers and the solution was to hurt people until they came around..
Both New Labour and Not-Really-Conservative-Tory Light seem to hover around the same status quo of actual position on things, but their origin of thought seems vastly different.
legzr1 said:
Jasandjules said:
To seek to pick on the weakest in society - those who are seriously ill - is the work of cowards, and just scum really. A pity that is what we have in power, and a tragedy that in an enlightened age people support such conduct.
Well said.All we need now is a post to divert away from the sickening decisions of ATOS and its current successor - maybe global warming?...
Edited by mph1977 on Sunday 30th August 04:45
turbobloke said:
No we don't, there was no intent, and that's exactly what I said should not happen. I even put the NB in bold so that you would have to deliberately miss it, and you did, well done.
Your biased transparent rhetorical devices are transparent and biased.
It may be incompetence in some cases, but not all.Your biased transparent rhetorical devices are transparent and biased.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/patrick-butler-...
https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/shoc...
http://labourlist.org/2013/03/second-leaked-dwp-wh...
Well I have just read the first link from the Guardian.
It claims the the union involved presented evidence that there were 'targets'
I just read the so called 'evidence' and it looked very weak indeed. It is quoting a Job Centre Adviser Team Manager who says 'he cannot believe 7 referrals is an appropriate level'
Far from a target, and just doing the job us tax payers expect of him.
What am I missing?
It claims the the union involved presented evidence that there were 'targets'
I just read the so called 'evidence' and it looked very weak indeed. It is quoting a Job Centre Adviser Team Manager who says 'he cannot believe 7 referrals is an appropriate level'
Far from a target, and just doing the job us tax payers expect of him.
What am I missing?
Targets don't exist. Officially.
This was a now deleted tweet from Sandra Lambert, DWP manager responsible for 149 JobCentres in the Midlands.
That's praise for increasing levels of successful referrals to DMAs.
You don't need explicit targets when a high level manager is tweeting praise.
Now as I know someone very well who is a JCP advisor, I do know they are questioned very closely on referrals to DMAs. There are no targets, but there is a very clear idea of at what rate they believe individual advisors should be making referrals.
This was a now deleted tweet from Sandra Lambert, DWP manager responsible for 149 JobCentres in the Midlands.
That's praise for increasing levels of successful referrals to DMAs.
You don't need explicit targets when a high level manager is tweeting praise.
Now as I know someone very well who is a JCP advisor, I do know they are questioned very closely on referrals to DMAs. There are no targets, but there is a very clear idea of at what rate they believe individual advisors should be making referrals.
I think somewhere there is actually an advisor who said he was criticised for not sanctioning enough people as well.. Can't find any reference to it now but I read it somewhere or other. A whistleblower.
Actually this letter would appear to indicate targets not being met and a find any excuse to sanction ideology.
http://labourlist.org/2013/03/shocking-dwp-whistle...
Actually this letter would appear to indicate targets not being met and a find any excuse to sanction ideology.
http://labourlist.org/2013/03/shocking-dwp-whistle...
Edited by Jasandjules on Sunday 30th August 18:07
Jasandjules said:
To seek to pick on the weakest in society - those who are seriously ill - is the work of cowards, and just scum really.
Hanlon's Razor: Do not ascribe to malice that which might be explained by incompetence. I doubt that anyone has active malice towards the genuine cases- I feel it much more likely that they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Jasandjules said:
Not so much proof as "someone claims that............"https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/shoc...
Leaving aside any bias that the website might have, there seems to be a lot of allegation but no actual facts once the preaching to the choir is over.
http://labourlist.org/2013/03/second-leaked-dwp-wh...
Edited by Rovinghawk on Monday 31st August 01:19
Rovinghawk said:
Hanlon's Razor: Do not ascribe to malice that which might be explained by incompetence.
I doubt that anyone has active malice towards the genuine cases- I feel it much more likely that they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
And when this 'incompetence' is ongoing and stretching into months and years, and still nothing is done about it, what then?I doubt that anyone has active malice towards the genuine cases- I feel it much more likely that they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
IDSs Razor: We're saving money so f
k them all?legzr1 said:
And when this 'incompetence' is ongoing and stretching into months and years, and still nothing is done about it, what then?
Do you accept that it's incompetence/unintended consequences, etc or do you believe that someone out there has genuine psychopathic malice towards society's weak members but has managed to avoid commitment to a mental institution?I've had strong views for a very long time about the competence of many in the public sector- this whole story fits that viewpoint perfectly. It doesn't fit the idea of warped individuals getting their jollies from bullying weaklings.
In answer to your question, find those that are no good & get rid of them. This applies to both civil servants & benefit applications.
Regardless of the headlines, which if there is a number of deaths that were a direct result of these measure are true, we can assume it is those operating the policy that are at fault, not the intention to weed people out.
The bigger point is in my opinion is that the label od disability id flawed these days. Perhaps we need to move on and make the measure more meaningful.
So Fully disabled (unable to work due to a medical condition that precludes all work)
Medium Disabled (Able to work but excludes manual work)
Redefine what is disabled totally, so obesity not aligned to a medical condition no longer gets you extra money.
The genuine people would need not fear being punished by a one size fits all system.
The bigger point is in my opinion is that the label od disability id flawed these days. Perhaps we need to move on and make the measure more meaningful.
So Fully disabled (unable to work due to a medical condition that precludes all work)
Medium Disabled (Able to work but excludes manual work)
Redefine what is disabled totally, so obesity not aligned to a medical condition no longer gets you extra money.
The genuine people would need not fear being punished by a one size fits all system.
spaximus said:
Regardless of the headlines, which if there is a number of deaths that were a direct result of these measure are true, we can assume it is those operating the policy that are at fault, not the intention to weed people out.
The bigger point is in my opinion is that the label od disability id flawed these days. Perhaps we need to move on and make the measure more meaningful.
So Fully disabled (unable to work due to a medical condition that precludes all work)
Medium Disabled (Able to work but excludes manual work)
Redefine what is disabled totally, so obesity not aligned to a medical condition no longer gets you extra money.
The genuine people would need not fear being punished by a one size fits all system.
there is not a 'one size fits all ' system The bigger point is in my opinion is that the label od disability id flawed these days. Perhaps we need to move on and make the measure more meaningful.
So Fully disabled (unable to work due to a medical condition that precludes all work)
Medium Disabled (Able to work but excludes manual work)
Redefine what is disabled totally, so obesity not aligned to a medical condition no longer gets you extra money.
The genuine people would need not fear being punished by a one size fits all system.
it might help if you actually understood the criteria for applying for ESA , the crtieria for Work Related Activities Group and the criteria for the Support Group , this is before considering the abilities based approach that Occupational health Provision takes in well run businesses.
It might also help if you realise that many of those the left are claiming were found ' fit for work ' ( by the DWP not the Examination provider by the way) were actually placed in the Work Related Activities Group - rather than sent to JSA.
unfortunately some groups within the wider disability / people with chronic conditions community seem to be totally unprepared for the fact that a lot of people are fit for some work ... and are happy to wallow i nthe pity based approach of the left rather than the enablement approach adopted by other sub groups within the disability community ....
we'll leave hte somatic / functional overlay issues and the strongly somatic conditions aside here for the moment.
DLA /PIP is a totally seperate kettle of worms
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