The 'S' problems keep arising..

The 'S' problems keep arising..

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greyhulk

Original Poster:

989 posts

105 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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So after the big 120+ overheating issue, i visited vehicle electrics they diagnosis was that 'otter switch' needed replacing so ordered one & a thermostat (for peace of mind) off Neil at ML Performance.
Fitted it & automatic fan still didn't kick in, engine overheating.. same problem again coolant spitting out of the expansion tank even with the manual override fan on soon as i start the car up!

Visited a recommended mechanic who is red hot on ford capri's, granadas etc & tunes race cars up for a living which sounded promising.. I decided to just have a full service whilst i left it there (bad thing to do it seems)
Replaced the fuel filter, oil filter, spark plugs, water pump & battery. Also had the 'Evans Waterless Coolant Conversion' done to eliminate the boilover & hopefully aid a lil in keeping things abit cooler.

Gave it a test run, car was not starting up first time like it used to.. made an awful rattling sound when it did, driving it round the block it seemed to just cut out when dropping revs going into 1st gear, strange sound when foot was down on the pedal. Also noticed the temperature gage was not working at all neither was the oil pressure gage (well it seemed to just move from empty when i accelerated then go back down?)
Popped the hood, started car up again, left it running.. alot of white smoke about, a leak somewhere & me feeling abit demoralised. Mechanic said the something something timing needed to be adjusted so i left it there to be done on tuesday... *Cliffhanger*


greymrj

3,316 posts

203 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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Hmmm, mechanic has cocked something up! Immediate guess is that he has plug leads wrong. 2.8 cologne is NOT same as earlier Essex V6 or later Cologne 2.9. Leave it to him to sort out his mistake.
Back to the cooling issue. With the new otter switch the fan still doesnt work? If you short across the otter switch I presume it still doesn't work (rules out a faulty new switch). If you connect from battery direct to fan it does kick in? You have checked the engine fan fuse and that is OK? Have you checked the engine fan solenoid (can you hear it click when the otter fan is shorted?). Is there any sign of heating round the solenoid mounting to suggest electrical contact might have been broken? If none of that works you are just going to have to get the wiring diagram and put a test meter across every wire in the fan system and see where there is no connectivity and then find the break/poor connection and fix it!

I am afraid this is an 88 car like mine, there will be lots of niggles like this because it is old enough to really need a restoration, certainly of all the electrical side for a start.

I have to say I wouldnt have used the Evans system on a car fitted with K Jetronic Injection. There are a number of temperature sensors in the system and inconsistent temperatures, or temperatures not as the system expects will certainly bugger it up. There is for example a direct mechanical link between water temperature and fuel pressure to the injector head. The 2.9 EFi can cope with more variations than the 2.8 Jetronic can and the Evans system adds a variable.

There is absolutely no need to go down the Evans route. These cars have perfectly adequate cooling systems if they are working right. Ask the guys who do the Eurotour in their S types. If the cooling isnt working right then find out why and sort it, dont try to hide the problem it simply isnt going to work!

greyhulk

Original Poster:

989 posts

105 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
quotequote all
Yeah certainly got something wrong I just hope im not being charged for his errors!
Even with the new otter switch the auto fan did not kick in, he mentioned something about it working when the two wires were put together or something along those lines. Did replace a fuse few weeks ago but as far as I know none have blown (will remind him to check when I go back down Tuesday along with the other things you pointed out, thank you)

As for the Evans coolant I may have wasted my money there then if all does not bode well frown thought it might of helped keep the engine a lil cooler


v8s4me

7,234 posts

218 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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greyhulk said:
...Visited a recommended mechanic who is red hot on ford capri's, granadas etc & tunes race cars up for a living....
Really?

I suggest you get a full refund from this dork and offer to cross Mr Phillpot's hand with 40 pieces of stainless steel.

DamianS3

1,803 posts

181 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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v8s4me said:
Really?

I suggest you get a full refund from this dork and offer to cross Mr Phillpot's hand with 40 pieces of stainless steel.
I hope he knows how to properly bleed the s cooling system..?

Damian s3

tvrgit

8,470 posts

251 months

Saturday 29th August 2015
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v8s4me said:
greyhulk said:
...Visited a recommended mechanic who is red hot on ford capri's, granadas etc & tunes race cars up for a living....
Really?

I suggest you get a full refund from this dork and offer to cross Mr Phillpot's hand with 40 pieces of stainless steel.
This was exactly what I was thinking - this "mechanic" is an idiot - he gets a car in with a fault (overheating), doesn't cure that fault, but services the car and introduces a new fault (or maybe two) and then, instead of doing what anybody with half a brain would do, and realising that he's done something wrong, "diagnoses" that he now needs to change the ignition timing, which was perfectly fine before he got it, to cure the fault that has mysteriously developed...

Evans waterless coolant has a place. That is, in a working cooling system. It doesn't magically cure a fault (it may hide it, to an extent, but it's not a cure). Find the underlying cooling fault.

As others have said - does the fan work when you join up the two wires at the switch. No more guessing - fundamental test - Yes or no? Don't take this man's word for it - test it yourself. Does the fan come on?

If it does, and yet the new otter switch isn't working, then again, the fault lies with your expert mechanic. The otter switch only works if its immersed in water. It won't be immersed in water if your master mechanic hasn't bled the cooling system - you will have an air pocket which (a) means the fan won't come on and also (b) make the car overheat as water can't circulate through an air lock.

Go back to him. Take a bullst detector (or an S owner who at least understands how the system works).

And the moral of the story today, children, is that not all self-proclaimed "specialists" are truly specialists. Some are, many aren't.






Edited by tvrgit on Saturday 29th August 22:51

HvdWeerden

1,736 posts

199 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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+1 TVRGIT

Spathodus77

326 posts

208 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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Is the system overheating because it has n't been bled properly? I had problems because the system was n't properly bled - it'd hardly take any water. Then I realised that some chump (i.e. me) had put the radiator on upside down and so the bleed valve was on the bottom. Once rectified everything was fine. Does your cabin heater work on hot?

Ralph

greyhulk

Original Poster:

989 posts

105 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
quotequote all
Thanks for the replys guys believe me I feel the same.. Very annoyed putting my faith in a mechanic who has just created more problems and still not cured the overheating.

@tvrgit I can't test it myself as the car is at his garage left there (till he amends his mistakes) but the fan does work when the two wires are joined up at the switch he told me

@spathodus77 the car was already overheating before he worked on it, and the cabin heater gets hot yeah which im pretty sure means no air pockets

As for the coolant it was never to cure the overheating it was running low from the bpilovet and i didnt jnow which coolant had been ysed to top it back up. I wanted the mechanic to fix the overheating and a new thermostat, waterpump, otter switch later.. And it still hasent. hopefully Tuesday its a different story..
If I lived closer or my car would have made it in one piece i would of gladly got it to one of you guys to take a look at it.

Thanks for your help again tho, appreciate it


Edited by greyhulk on Sunday 30th August 13:41

mrzigazaga

18,534 posts

164 months

Sunday 30th August 2015
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Hi...Excuse me for poking me nose in...I owned a 1982 Tasmin 280i...I think the mechanic has done something he shouldn't have...Absolutely agree with the expensive pointless addition of Evans fluid...Good old blue coolant should be used only for all classic cars...For one the water pump on the cologne is mixed metals so needs the conditioners that are in the blue stuff.

Not sure on the "S" set up as far as coolant/Rad etc but make sure the thermostat is a ford or good quality brass type as i had two stick on me...Not literally...smile
Mine used to be a bit of a bugger to bleed...There is a method where you use the top thermostat housing to bleed off air...Jacking the front up can sometimes help...Are you bleeding it with the fan on the "Hot" position?...Squidge the hoses when its warming up...


As for otter switches...They are not worth a rude word..I had my 350i rad welded up...On my 280i i had a thermostatically controlled dial type fan controller which had a probe that went into the top rad hose along with an electric seal, The temperature was then calibrated to the opening of the thermostat...88 degree i think was mine and so that once the temperature had reach 94 degrees then the fan will come on and bring it down to 89-90 which was adequate...Eventually i had a alloy rad and an 18" 2 stage Kenlowe turbo fan fitted but that was to help keep it cool for the supercharger that i also had fitted...smile

What rads do the "S" have?...Are they like the Sierra...Mine was the Granada mk2...Bloody awful.......Cheers...Ziga

Try this instead of an otter switch...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AeroLine-Capillary-Therm...

But use one of these seals...DO NOT use silicone!...

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...




Edited by mrzigazaga on Sunday 30th August 19:30

Kitchski

6,514 posts

230 months

Monday 25th April 2016
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Was in the process of searching for something else and found this thread. What was the cause of the issue in the end?

Regards all the negative comments on Evans Waterless Coolant, I've only seen one that I'd agree with (the one where it was stated Evans won't fix a broken cooling system, it's designed for one that works in the first place - this is completely true).

My S runs Waterless Coolant, and it's one of the best things I've done to it. Blue anti-freeze is rated for two years, this stuff lasts the life of the engine. My cooling system doesn't pressurise any more, meaning I can switch the caps around and use two tanks' worth of coolant - extended cooling capacity is the result. There's no stress on the hoses, the pipes, the brittle alloy housings and manifolds either. There's none of the orange gunk you normally find in a Cologne, as the pig iron slowly dissolves into the water hehe

I have no issue with anybody saying it's not for them, or they think the benefits don't equate to the initial cost etc, but saying normal coolant is better is just plain wrong. It's better at transferring heat, yes. That's the one thing water is better at, yet this benefit is completely dwarfed by the ability to move the limit of coolant operation much further away from the engine's normal operating temperature. By design, it wants to operate at 90 degrees C, or so. By nature, it wants to boil at 100 degrees C. We can bump that figure a bit higher by pressurising it, or we can fit a coolant that works at up to twice the temperature of what the engine wants to run at. As a result, the engine runs exactly as it did before. Any talk of engines running much hotter (like 20 degrees or so) than with normal coolant is just bks, frankly.

I was interested to see if you managed to resolve the issues OP, but if you spent a lot of money fitting EWC to your S, don't waste the money by chucking water back in. Evans isn't the cause of your problem, and once it's up and running properly, it'll be all the better for having it in there.

Anyway, as you all were smile

greyhulk

Original Poster:

989 posts

105 months

Monday 25th April 2016
quotequote all
Kitchski said:
Was in the process of searching for something else and found this thread. What was the cause of the issue in the end?

Regards all the negative comments on Evans Waterless Coolant, I've only seen one that I'd agree with (the one where it was stated Evans won't fix a broken cooling system, it's designed for one that works in the first place - this is completely true).

My S runs Waterless Coolant, and it's one of the best things I've done to it. Blue anti-freeze is rated for two years, this stuff lasts the life of the engine. My cooling system doesn't pressurise any more, meaning I can switch the caps around and use two tanks' worth of coolant - extended cooling capacity is the result. There's no stress on the hoses, the pipes, the brittle alloy housings and manifolds either. There's none of the orange gunk you normally find in a Cologne, as the pig iron slowly dissolves into the water hehe

I have no issue with anybody saying it's not for them, or they think the benefits don't equate to the initial cost etc, but saying normal coolant is better is just plain wrong. It's better at transferring heat, yes. That's the one thing water is better at, yet this benefit is completely dwarfed by the ability to move the limit of coolant operation much further away from the engine's normal operating temperature. By design, it wants to operate at 90 degrees C, or so. By nature, it wants to boil at 100 degrees C. We can bump that figure a bit higher by pressurising it, or we can fit a coolant that works at up to twice the temperature of what the engine wants to run at. As a result, the engine runs exactly as it did before. Any talk of engines running much hotter (like 20 degrees or so) than with normal coolant is just bks, frankly.

I was interested to see if you managed to resolve the issues OP, but if you spent a lot of money fitting EWC to your S, don't waste the money by chucking water back in. Evans isn't the cause of your problem, and once it's up and running properly, it'll be all the better for having it in there.

Anyway, as you all were smile
Hi Kitchski, im with you on that one, the evans waterless coolant was the best thing i done to the S.. Yes it wasn't just a lack of coolant, faulty thermostat or waterpump that caused the overheating, the culprit was the rad! Once i got it recored & fitted a kenlowe 14" jetboost fan my temperature stays at 80-90 degree's had no problems since.

My issue now is the occasional stalling when idling, now the coil was on side of plenum & when the car was overheating all this heat may have affected this & the ignition module or it may or may not be down to me not using the car very much? Or something to do with the fuel pump (air flow meter has all been checked out, no air intake leaks either, was all sorted out by very good mechanic Adrian Venn recommended)

So i may have a failing ignition module/coil, the car will NOT start up with the turn of a key unless theres some throttle applied & can stall unexpectedly during operation & will not start again for a good 5minutes (happened few weeks ago for the first time in awhile & backfired.. again may have been lack of use who knows)

Edited by greyhulk on Monday 25th April 17:23

Kitchski

6,514 posts

230 months

Monday 25th April 2016
quotequote all
greyhulk said:
Hi Kitchski, im with you on that one, the evans waterless coolant was the best thing i done to the S.. Yes it wasn't just a lack of coolant, faulty thermostat or waterpump that caused the overheating, the culprit was the rad! Once i got it recored & fitted a kenlowe 14" jetboost fan my temperature stays at 80-90 degree's had no problems since.

My issue now is the occasional stalling when idling, now the coil was on side of plenum & when the car was overheating all this heat may have affected this & the ignition module or it may or may not be down to me not using the car very much? Or something to do with the fuel pump (air flow meter has all been checked out, no air intake leaks either, was all sorted out by very good mechanic Adrian Venn recommended)

So i may have a failing ignition module/coil, the car will NOT start up with the turn of a key unless theres some throttle applied & can stall unexpectedly during operation & will not start again for a good 5minutes (happened few weeks ago for the first time in awhile & backfired.. again may have been lack of use who knows)

Edited by greyhulk on Monday 25th April 17:23
That's interesting about the rad. I've been umming and ahhing about upgrading to an alloy one myself. One issue I always had with the S was that if I was pressing on (on test roads obviously) it used to go into three figures, both on the coolant gauge and the speedo! It also used to get hot sitting in heavy traffic on hot days. That's no good with normal anti-freeze! The fact I had Evans also prevented me from missing the ferry to Guernsey, as I reached 105deg C in a big jam last year. I was able to just carry on as normal. No coolant lost, no issues - made it to the ferry terminal just in time. If I was still running normal coolant, I'd have had to pull over and miss the only boat of the day. When I switched to Evans, I used the opportunity at Millbrook last year to see if the faster-driving issue was still there (and hadn't miraculously fixed itself or something!) I wasn't expecting it to have disappeared at all, but knew that with the Evans in there, I could keep pushing and keep it hot longer, giving me more time to try different things and see if I could find out where the issue was.
In the end it behaved perfectly, other than the high temps (110degrees at one point!) I've now arrived at either a blocked/failed radiator, or more likely the mesh inside the bonnet grille - it's very fine, and I can't imagine much air is passing through it. Couple that to the fact the radiator sits a long way behind at, and at an angle, and I think it's likely it's just a case of not enough cold air reaching the radiator. My cooling fan bearing is also getting noisy, so I think either give this rad the ok, or replace with alloy, and I'll pop a new fan on there in time for when this one finally dies.

I can safely say that Evans doesn't fix a faulty cooling system, but it did mean I didn't waste a day at Millbrook, or miss a very expensive ferry laugh

greyhulk

Original Poster:

989 posts

105 months

Monday 25th April 2016
quotequote all
I was contemplating about an alloy one & in the end the price for a recore werent too far off (£260 :rolleyes) they did do a modern recore which added more cores to the rad which i imagine can only be beneficial.
Ive comfortably done 70mph on motorway constant for a good 40minutes & temperature barely reached 90degree's.

Read a few things about the alloy ones that put me off, odd weld leak etc so i just stayed clear although they do look nice & think keep even cooler.

I cant reccomend the kenlowe 14" jetboost fan enough, its superb, (noisy on jet-boost mode tho, which mine is on when it auto kicks in) think it auto kicks into jetboost if temperature goes over 90 on standard setting.

I recently changed the very fine/blocked up mesh from my bonnet grill with a bigger mesh (stainless steel of course) was very thick & hard to work with as it didnt bend much but eventually got it all fitted in, another option of keeping engine cooler would be getting exhaust manifold wrapped.. im considering this myself as its alot cheaper than getting stainless (which just look nice) & ceramic coating was coming in at £700+

Original

After

Kitchski

6,514 posts

230 months

Monday 25th April 2016
quotequote all
Yeah, the price is a bit of a stumbling block! Plus the original rad is more than up to the job, it's just a case of whether mine's failing or not.

I can do 70mph all day long, no problems. Can sit in traffic most days, and 90% of the time notice no issues at all. It's only if I start trying to venture past a ton, or choose to sit in heavy traffic on very hot days that it starts to complain. It did this before on normal coolant, though back then it was more of an issue as I'd have to let it cool down again. I was hoping during the rebuild I might have found something amiss, but everything was fine. Now I'm waterless, it's gone further down the pecking order as it's now not so much of a problem, but it is something I want to rectify. Work keeps getting in the way though!

The mesh I meant was the stuff behind the radiator grille. I'm pretty sure that vent at the top does sweet FA, except allow the bonnet to clear the throttle linkage assy. The stuff I have behind my grille is almost as fine as the stuff you've fitted to the top vent! It needs to be more open IMO, so I'll do that before dicking around with radiators as it could be an easy fix. I've got to take the bonnet off soon anyway.

I've got the stainless exhaust headers - only advantage of them is they don't crack like the original cast ones (well they haven't yet at least!) I don't think there's much issue with heat coming from the exhausts on mine, or even under bonnet temps in general. It's just the flow to, or through the radiator isn't up to spec.

Cheers

Top Gear TVR

2,244 posts

153 months

Monday 25th April 2016
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My two penneth worth.

TGTVR had a leaky heater matrix which was replaced with new, then it had a small rad leak. i bought the bullet and bought a full set of stainless and silicon pipes, stainless jubilee clips and an alloy rad. Oh and a new OE fan, all the way from Australia.

I flushed the engine both ways, plumbed it all up and flushed it again, and then put a stainless header and swirl pot in.

I got my caps the right way around (pressure and suck back cap on the swirl pot) and bled the thing properly.

On a cold day of less than 5 degrees at anything above 40 mph it will not warm fully because the rad bypass (which is not really a bypass at all) is such that the rad cools the slow-flow enough, even with the thermostat stat shut to prevent warming.

I like this as its much better than an overheating engine. I stick a large black sponge in the lower grill area of the bonnet for the winter and this reduces flow enough to allow the engine to hold temperature. Its just like the old 'winter' setting your dad had. In spring remove the sponge.

This gives me a massive margin in hot weather. Stationary traffic, 20 minutes, 32 degrees, still sitting dead on 90 degree. Fan on, fan off, fan on, fan off.

It NEVER uses water, it just works.

Thats what I would do. Bullet proof water based cooling. The other option is to modify the bypass circuit - but no need, this is rock solid safe.

GreenV8S

30,150 posts

283 months

Monday 25th April 2016
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greyhulk said:
another option of keeping engine cooler would be getting exhaust manifold wrapped.. im considering this myself as its alot cheaper than getting stainless (which just look nice) & ceramic coating was coming in at £700+
Wrapping the exhaust cut the under-bonnet temperatures significantly on mine, and also muted engine noise noticeably under load. It's only a temporary fix though because the thermal wrap will degrade and gradually fall apart in my experience, even if you spray it with the recommended coating and wire wrap the whole thing to limit the size of piece that can come loose. Also don't be alarmed if it smokes like mad for a few minutes the first time you're sat in traffic.

I know you can pay a lot for ceramic coating and no doubt the expensive professional stuff has its advantages, but it's possible to buy ceramic paint and apply it yourself. It's relatively expensive paint but you don't need much of it - far less than 700 quids worth.

AutoAndy

2,265 posts

214 months

Monday 25th April 2016
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I'm a too lazy to read this all the way through, but with a standard S3 cooling system I have never had overheating probs so I think it should work ok if all is in order ( not that I know what in order actually is)... And I have been in slow traffic for hours on end on London thunder and several days driving thru Germany in 30 degrees heat on Euro tour....so why exactly do some overheat?...in an ideal world (and I know it never is) should be able to solve the cause and not the symptom... wink

greyhulk

Original Poster:

989 posts

105 months

Monday 25th April 2016
quotequote all
GreenV8S said:
Wrapping the exhaust cut the under-bonnet temperatures significantly on mine, and also muted engine noise noticeably under load. It's only a temporary fix though because the thermal wrap will degrade and gradually fall apart in my experience, even if you spray it with the recommended coating and wire wrap the whole thing to limit the size of piece that can come loose. Also don't be alarmed if it smokes like mad for a few minutes the first time you're sat in traffic.

I know you can pay a lot for ceramic coating and no doubt the expensive professional stuff has its advantages, but it's possible to buy ceramic paint and apply it yourself. It's relatively expensive paint but you don't need much of it - far less than 700 quids worth.
Yeah I'd imagine over time it degrades, I didn't know you could get hold of the ceramic paint, would be great for keeping exhaust cooler. Will look into it

steve j

3,223 posts

227 months

Monday 25th April 2016
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greyhulk said:
Yeah certainly got something wrong I just hope im not being charged for his errors!
Even with the new otter switch the auto fan did not kick in, he mentioned something about it working when the two wires were put together or something along those lines. Did replace a fuse few weeks ago but as far as I know none have blown (will remind him to check when I go back down Tuesday along with the other things you pointed out, thank you)

As for the Evans coolant I may have wasted my money there then if all does not bode well frown thought it might of helped keep the engine a lil cooler
If the fan kicks in when the two wires are connected, the system is fine, it also proves imho that the replacement otter switch is faulty.