Bangernomics verses New Cars
Discussion
Zoobeef said:
My A4 estate cost me £2000 2 years ago this week. It's gone from 158k to 213k in that time and not including tax, insurance and fuel has cost me £1165.21
That includes 8 tyres and 6 services inc a cambelt one.
I doubt you could beat that on a new car and as the years go by the original cost will spread to more thinly.
Yes but, your car has 213,000 miles on it, the tyres alone could have cost 800 quid, which only leaves 365 quid for 6 services and a cam belt, which I assume means you are servicing yourself. Most people don't have the time, tools, skills and inclination for DIY car servicing. Also, what are you allowing for your time? 6 services and a cam belt even at an independent garage could easily be 2 grand by the time they have found couple of jobs that need doing on a high mileage car. That includes 8 tyres and 6 services inc a cambelt one.
I doubt you could beat that on a new car and as the years go by the original cost will spread to more thinly.
Plenty of cars at the mileage you bought yours at will be shagged piles of neglected scrap, you have a good one, but you can't guarantee that your next 160,000 mile used car will be a good one.
I can buy, own and run my late used car for what the lease on the same car would cost, it doesn't mean leasing is wrong, or I am right, just that for me owning works best.
As a cash-strapped devotee of old Mercs, I ponder the dilemma all the time. I do 55,000miles a year in a w124, w201 and r129. I keep them in really good order at a cost of about £12,500 to £15,000 a year. They use a fair bit of fuel (the 129 gives 23mpg, the other two 31mpg). They cost £200-odd to tax. And about £300 each to insure. They are not depreciating: if anything they are appreciating slightly. But they are not by any stretch of the imagination cheap to own and run.
But I love driving them and each and every journey is a pleasure. Even the six mile run to the takeaway and back.
There is nothing that I would want to drive that I could afford to lease, given my mileage. The cheap lease deals are never that cheap. You always get stung for damage at the end of the lease. Deals including tyres are pretty rare and I have never come across puncture repairs being included. And the mileage limits are puny: 8,000miles per annum seems to be the norm. Heck, some days I do 800miles. But more to the point, the cars are dreadful. They're all four cylinder turbo diesels in "sport" trim. I've tried a Golf GTD. Even my wife hated it.
So if you want an appliance to do a limited mileage, a new car lease might be ideal. But if you want a car that will give you pleasurable driving over many miles, a "banger" is better. Just not cheap.
ETA, my beloved w124 is on 314,750miles at the moment and for many of us, doing DIY oil services is part of the pleasure.
But I love driving them and each and every journey is a pleasure. Even the six mile run to the takeaway and back.
There is nothing that I would want to drive that I could afford to lease, given my mileage. The cheap lease deals are never that cheap. You always get stung for damage at the end of the lease. Deals including tyres are pretty rare and I have never come across puncture repairs being included. And the mileage limits are puny: 8,000miles per annum seems to be the norm. Heck, some days I do 800miles. But more to the point, the cars are dreadful. They're all four cylinder turbo diesels in "sport" trim. I've tried a Golf GTD. Even my wife hated it.
So if you want an appliance to do a limited mileage, a new car lease might be ideal. But if you want a car that will give you pleasurable driving over many miles, a "banger" is better. Just not cheap.
ETA, my beloved w124 is on 314,750miles at the moment and for many of us, doing DIY oil services is part of the pleasure.
Edited by r129sl on Sunday 30th August 21:06
I agree about the nearly new market: the figures just don't add up, and I can't see the point of buying a car a few years old unless you are intending to keep the car for many many years and/or do lots and lots of miles. Nearly new often seem more expensive than brand new, when you include all costs.
I disagree.
I was T-boned by the clutch failing (two days before Christmas, joy), and that little gem came to a grand alone. Without that, my repair bills would have only been £50 per month, which I think is very good for an older car to include everything.
The other factor is DIY. Some people can take out and replace a gearbox in their lunch hour. Me, I might do a bit of light tinkering on a sunny afternoon. Anything more demanding than (my current job on my to-do list) fixing a rear wiper that has stopped working goes to a garage.
I take my hat off to those who get in there and get on with it. I'm a driver and not a fixer and as the years go by I do less and less on cars. I've never even looked under my V70. I want a car that just works, and someone else to fix it when it doesn't.
Back to the clutch and flywheel. These here who run older cars (like me) have this Russian roulette forever spinning. Most the time you get away with it but every now and then....bang, a very big bill blows your savings away.
hairykrishna said:
JumboBeef said:
Repairs over the last couple of years must be more than a couple of grand (not helped by having to do the clutch and flywheel). So let's knock a hundred off each month.
I reckon this is where your man maths kicks into high gear. If you're spending £1200 a year on repairing your 'banger' then you're doing it wrong.I was T-boned by the clutch failing (two days before Christmas, joy), and that little gem came to a grand alone. Without that, my repair bills would have only been £50 per month, which I think is very good for an older car to include everything.
The other factor is DIY. Some people can take out and replace a gearbox in their lunch hour. Me, I might do a bit of light tinkering on a sunny afternoon. Anything more demanding than (my current job on my to-do list) fixing a rear wiper that has stopped working goes to a garage.
I take my hat off to those who get in there and get on with it. I'm a driver and not a fixer and as the years go by I do less and less on cars. I've never even looked under my V70. I want a car that just works, and someone else to fix it when it doesn't.
Back to the clutch and flywheel. These here who run older cars (like me) have this Russian roulette forever spinning. Most the time you get away with it but every now and then....bang, a very big bill blows your savings away.
Edited by JumboBeef on Monday 31st August 10:05
JumboBeef said:
I was T-boned by the clutch failing (two days before Christmas, joy), and that little gem came to a grand alone. Without that, my repair bills would have only been £50 per month, which I think is very good for an older car to include everything.
Um... yeah but isnt that daft logic. Ignoring this one really big bill, my bills are actually very small. But you cant ignore the one really big bill, because you have to pay for it to keep the car going. And its a cost you wouldnt have had with a new, or company car. You're fudging the maths to suit yourself.
I have always bought around the 7/8k mark. For this we mainly run 10-year old German cars with 60 - 80k miles.
Both current cars fit inline with the above, and apart from a £150 service each have not cost a penny in 12 and 6 months. We both do less than 8k a year miles mind.
And, as we usually only keep our cars for 2/3 years we don't tend to loose much either. My last B7 A4 QT was sold for the same as I paid for it 4-years previously!
Both current cars fit inline with the above, and apart from a £150 service each have not cost a penny in 12 and 6 months. We both do less than 8k a year miles mind.
And, as we usually only keep our cars for 2/3 years we don't tend to loose much either. My last B7 A4 QT was sold for the same as I paid for it 4-years previously!
Condi said:
JumboBeef said:
I was T-boned by the clutch failing (two days before Christmas, joy), and that little gem came to a grand alone. Without that, my repair bills would have only been £50 per month, which I think is very good for an older car to include everything.
Um... yeah but isnt that daft logic. Ignoring this one really big bill, my bills are actually very small. But you cant ignore the one really big bill, because you have to pay for it to keep the car going. And its a cost you wouldnt have had with a new, or company car. You're fudging the maths to suit yourself.
That's sort of my point. If I had sold that car at 3.5 years instead of 4.5 years of ownership, I wouldn't had had to pay for the clutch. But I did, and I know in the fullness of time there will be other big bills. I'm explaining my man maths to the poster who said £1,200 per year was high.
AudiSport said:
Both current cars fit inline with the above, and apart from a £150 service each have not cost a penny in 12 and 6 months. We both do less than 8k a year miles mind.
Apart from tax of course. And insurance. And the MOT test cost (as you've had one 12 months). And tyres....? Do you never change your tyres?
If bangernomics is costing £1200 a year in maintenance you're doing it very wrong. My 13 year old Discovery with air suspension and active ARBs doesn't cost that much.
Older cars are a gamble but your £300 a month lease is costing £3600 a year which is a hell of a lot of money to try to hide in man maths. That's more than £10k over the course of the lease.
We got swmbo a Mazda 6 estate 3.5 years ago for £1800 which hasn't needed fixing apart from a seized brake caliper one MOT. So that's £100 a year on MOT and servicing, <£250 on insurance and a similar amount on tax iirc. And I replaced all the tyres at some point for £360 ish. So, say it's worth £1k still that works out at £900 pa plus fuel. £75 a month for a 2l estate that drives quite well.
Even if I'd been unlucky and had a big bill or something terminal I'd still be many £k better off.
Older cars are a gamble but your £300 a month lease is costing £3600 a year which is a hell of a lot of money to try to hide in man maths. That's more than £10k over the course of the lease.
We got swmbo a Mazda 6 estate 3.5 years ago for £1800 which hasn't needed fixing apart from a seized brake caliper one MOT. So that's £100 a year on MOT and servicing, <£250 on insurance and a similar amount on tax iirc. And I replaced all the tyres at some point for £360 ish. So, say it's worth £1k still that works out at £900 pa plus fuel. £75 a month for a 2l estate that drives quite well.
Even if I'd been unlucky and had a big bill or something terminal I'd still be many £k better off.
TarpaTow said:
Nickbrapp said:
Just bloody do it. It's only money you can't take with you when you die. I have a company car. I got sick of driving it and only it, so ive just bought a brand new fiesta St. Yes it costs me £220 a month with insurance etc but I don't care, yes that's 2000 a year I could be sticking in savings, but saving for what? I have a house. Il be working for the next 45 years. Who cares. Others will be smug in running a old car, I didn't want a old car.
Do what you want. Money is money no point in working for nothing.
I agree with you to a point, 'cos you've also got the image thing as well, people will have a different view on you in your new car. I don't know what you do, but I'm in Finance and it's important people have a good impression of you in the business world.Do what you want. Money is money no point in working for nothing.
But a Fiesta? You should have gone for a prestige brand like BMW or Audi. That way, you get all get benefits of buying in to the brand, the ultimate driving experience, a decent high performance new car and all the advantages that go with the image.
What's better, rocking up in a Fiesta or a BM.
I used to do bangers. Typically premium cars such as Volvo, Saab or Merc. The last Merc was going rusty and was becoming un-representable. Time to go alas.
It's eventual long term replacement was another Merc, that was far too complicated and looked like it had every intention on costing me a lot of money at every turn. I like things to work, and do 30-40k a year.
Have ended up with a new XC60. Yes it's a payment - but other than the servicing I know what it's costing me, it's efficient, modern and comfortable. If it breaks, they fix it. Job done.
It's eventual long term replacement was another Merc, that was far too complicated and looked like it had every intention on costing me a lot of money at every turn. I like things to work, and do 30-40k a year.
Have ended up with a new XC60. Yes it's a payment - but other than the servicing I know what it's costing me, it's efficient, modern and comfortable. If it breaks, they fix it. Job done.
JumboBeef said:
Condi said:
JumboBeef said:
I was T-boned by the clutch failing (two days before Christmas, joy), and that little gem came to a grand alone. Without that, my repair bills would have only been £50 per month, which I think is very good for an older car to include everything.
Um... yeah but isnt that daft logic. Ignoring this one really big bill, my bills are actually very small. But you cant ignore the one really big bill, because you have to pay for it to keep the car going. And its a cost you wouldnt have had with a new, or company car. You're fudging the maths to suit yourself.
That's sort of my point. If I had sold that car at 3.5 years instead of 4.5 years of ownership, I wouldn't had had to pay for the clutch. But I did, and I know in the fullness of time there will be other big bills. I'm explaining my man maths to the poster who said £1,200 per year was high.
AudiSport said:
Both current cars fit inline with the above, and apart from a £150 service each have not cost a penny in 12 and 6 months. We both do less than 8k a year miles mind.
Apart from tax of course. And insurance. And the MOT test cost (as you've had one 12 months). And tyres....? Do you never change your tyres?Having just sold the old mk1 MX5, and being sad and keeping everything in excel for 8 years of motoring it has cost each month.
£15.88 in depreciation
£19.17 Tax
£15.08 Insurance
£3.47 for service items
£3.33 MOT
£1.66 Tyres
£0.42 for Maintenance over the 8 years it needed a clutch master cylinder £10 from a scrappy, a brake pipe ~£10, V belt £5 and a battery £15 from a scrappy.
which works out at £59.01 a month for everything except for fuel.
If I had not sold it, it would have had a new cambelt and water pump which would put an extra £0.82 on the bill.
As we have lots of cars we would not be stuck if anything big went wrong, however if it were our only car it would be a much bigger gamble.
£15.88 in depreciation
£19.17 Tax
£15.08 Insurance
£3.47 for service items
£3.33 MOT
£1.66 Tyres
£0.42 for Maintenance over the 8 years it needed a clutch master cylinder £10 from a scrappy, a brake pipe ~£10, V belt £5 and a battery £15 from a scrappy.
which works out at £59.01 a month for everything except for fuel.
If I had not sold it, it would have had a new cambelt and water pump which would put an extra £0.82 on the bill.
As we have lots of cars we would not be stuck if anything big went wrong, however if it were our only car it would be a much bigger gamble.
If you're lucky bangernomics can save a bit of money, but it doesn't take many breakdowns before the savings disappear, and as cars get more complicated with increasingly complex emissions control so the repair costs will get higher. I'd rather run a 10 year old car than a 3 year old car, for instance, I dread to think what the replacement cost of a DSG gearbox will be, but I know that a set of injectors and a high pressure fuel pump cost my dad a couple of grand recently.
For me, it isn't just about motoring at the lowest possible cost, I want reliable, trouble free motoring. Most years we drive down to the South of France, or Italy, or Spain for our annual family holiday, it's usually about 1000 miles each way plus a few hundred miles whilst we're there, I'm fairly confident that my new, leased E350 will get us there and back without a problem (economically and in some comfort). I wouldn't be so confident doing the same journey in a 10 year old bargain car, and breaking down in the middle of nowhere, a thousand miles from home and with a car full of kids, is a problem I don't need.
For me, it isn't just about motoring at the lowest possible cost, I want reliable, trouble free motoring. Most years we drive down to the South of France, or Italy, or Spain for our annual family holiday, it's usually about 1000 miles each way plus a few hundred miles whilst we're there, I'm fairly confident that my new, leased E350 will get us there and back without a problem (economically and in some comfort). I wouldn't be so confident doing the same journey in a 10 year old bargain car, and breaking down in the middle of nowhere, a thousand miles from home and with a car full of kids, is a problem I don't need.
I have a company car so only have to buy the wife's car, and she only does about 2k miles a year. We tend to buy a decent car about 12 months old with biggish mileage, around 30K miles. We normally get a car which was £25-£30K new for about £15-£20K. We keep it 4 years and sell it when 5 yrs old as a below average miles car with about 38K miles on it. On average we lose in depreciation about a grand a year. Any major issues with the car normally surface within manufacturers warranty period.
Works for us.
Works for us.
OTOH running a new E class is an expensive way to try to ensure you don't break down on holiday.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff