Are modern cars really faster than old ones?

[s m]

rb5er said:

TarpaTow said:

My BM 1 series is much quicker than even a 3 series from the 80s. It's also got amazing handling and brakes, much better than even 10 years ago.

Maybe its unfair to include BMs as they are specially developed for enthusiasts so will be better than most, but even my old Peugeot 206CC was quite some performer, but that was a different type of sports car so not a good comparison.

What about asking if new cars have a better image than old ones, a new BM shows you've made it, but if you drive an old one, even if it is a 3 series, people just think you can't afford a decent set of wheels

This has got to be a joke post. So much wrong.

Maybe helps if you read it backwards......

[RemyMartin]

Specially developed for enthusiasts

Yeah those 114i are BADASS!!! Jesus christ. What with 'Junior Supercar Vladimir' and now this, you are living up to the cliché of BMW drivers being s

[KingNothing]

Just curious why the comparison for a Mk.1 Focus RS is an ST250 and not a Mk.2 RS or even a Mk.3? (Mk.2 is easier as all figures are freely available) Surely if you're posing the question asking if modern cars are faster, you use an older model of a car and a later model of that car? Just lumping two cars together because they have got a similar power to weight ratio doesn't make it a fair comparison. Or is it because if you'd used a Mk.2 RS in the example, whatever point you want to make wouldn't correlate because the higher power in the RS while being a similar weight to the ST250 would skew the power to weight figure in favour of the newer car?

[cerb4.5lee]

RemyMartin said:

Specially developed for enthusiasts

Yeah those 114i are BADASS!!! Jesus christ. What with 'Junior Supercar Vladimir' and now this, you are living up to the cliché of BMW drivers being s

The full fat M cars nowadays are aimed at a different market rather than the enthusiasts...I suppose though if a M135i is a junior supercar then the 114i must still be pretty rapid.

I think he is joking though...I hope!

[Kawasicki]

Cars are getting faster all the time...

Auto Motor und Sport

Hockenheim lap time

BMW 120d 1m22,3s Hockenheim lap time measured› 9/2007
BMW 120d 1m20,1s Hockenheim lap time measured› 11/2013

and

Lotus Elise 1m20,2s Hockenheim lap time measured› 7/2010

check it out..

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/rundenzeiten/ho...

[MC Bodge]

Hungrymc said:

But you can still go for a faster model, and still extract more from it (if that's the route you choose)

There is still plenty of room for seriously fast cars and seriously fast bikes.

Of course you can, but even the mid-range version can still be driven fairly rapidly -certainly way beyond the law (and more relevantly, beyond the typical visibility on the road). Even amongst PH posters the vast majority of people don't actually drive hard or briskly on challenging roads anyway.

Overtaking is possible in the mid range car too, and all cars are hindered in the same way by their length and width.

Mid-powered bikes are rapid on the road with a good rider. Uber bikes are not going to be stretched much on the road.

[ORD]

RemyMartin said:

Specially developed for enthusiasts

Yeah those 114i are BADASS!!! Jesus christ. What with 'Junior Supercar Vladimir' and now this, you are living up to the cliché of BMW drivers being s

He's obviously either trolling or mad, and the 1 series is a bit of a dog in my book BUT BMWs are at least RWD and gave good weight distribution, decent chassis, etc.

By comparison to other mainstream brands, BMW still does stand for decent dynamics. I would always check what BMW had to offer in a particular vehicle class, and I cannot say the same of many manufacturers.

[Hungrymc]

MC Bodge said:

Of course you can, but even the mid-range version can still be driven fairly rapidly -certainly way beyond the law (and more relevantly, beyond the typical visibility on the road). Even amongst PH posters the vast majority of people don't actually drive hard or briskly on challenging roads anyway.

Overtaking is possible in the mid range car too, and all cars are hindered in the same way by their length and width.

Mid-powered bikes are rapid on the road with a good rider. Uber bikes are not going to be stretched much on the road.

I get your point. But the question wasn't about if middle of the road cars are all you 'need' there are loads of threads about that. Fast modern cars are ridiculously competent and quick. I have some sympathy for those who say the fun is different but it doesn't change the facts that modern cars which are designed to be fast are incredible. A modern hot hatch with a dual clutch box and a clever diff is ridiculous (if not the 'pure' driving experience - which again I don't think was the question).

On the bike question, same again, modern litre bikes are crazy with TC etc. I happen to like a bike that's is beyond my ability as I enjoy feeling stretched by it. Doesn't change the fact that modern bikes are faster.

[B'stard Child]

JordanTurbo said:

Last 10 minutes of my life went like this....

1. See thread title, think "could be good"
2. Open thread
3. Get half way through opening post and think
4. Scroll back to top and check poster name.
5. Yep should have known
6. Stick with it, maybe this one will be different.....
7. Once again thread doesn't go the way OP wants so the question is changed repeatedly. It doesn't work.
8. Get bored by the end of page 2.
9. Skip to end and see I didn't miss much.

Can we stop feeding him please?

ETA: The "Lions Vs Sun" has made up for it, faith in PH restored.

Mine went....

1. See thread title, think "could be good"
2. Open thread
3. Get half way through the first page and think why do people deliberately bait the OP
4. Stick with it, maybe this one will be different.....
5. Get to the lions V Sun - thinks PH only on PH
6. Pleased that Max Torque has skills other than fabrication (albeit slow)
7. Waits for the conveyor to be mentioned

Still enjoying Lions V Sun - it's actually made me forget what the original question was

[Bill]

Faster? Yes. Better? Yes by most measures. They're safer, more efficient, better equipped. Better to drive? That's more subjective, some people like to be able to cover the ground swiftly, some prefer to feel more involved, if ultimately slower.

I enjoyed the lions though.

[anonymous-user]

Some Gump said:

sc0tt said:

yonex said:

Anyway...... Are these lions all African or a mixture?

Good point. Can someone please confirm?

Every thread. Every god damn thread. It's time we kicked racism out of PH for good. Thank god at least no-one's questioned the gender of the lions, or whether (shudder) one of them might you know bat for the other team.

Well, get you..

[Some Gump]

yonex said:

Well, get you..

Wow. That's awesome. 1 trillion of those bad boys and the sun has no chance.

In other news, why did some people attempt to get back on topic? Clearly not right.

[E65Ross]

Some Gump said:

yonex said:

Well, get you..

Wow. That's awesome. 1 trillion of those bad boys and the sun has no chance.

In other news, why did some people attempt to get back on topic? Clearly not right.

I'm not so sure.... The extra hair may be a fire hazard..... However, it does give them a look of sophistication which may indicate a higher level of intelligence. This might in turn mean they can come up with some amazing way of defeating the sun?

[Hungrymc]

Some Gump said:

Wow. That's awesome. 1 trillion of those bad boys and the sun has no chance.

In other news, why did some people attempt to get back on topic? Clearly not right.

You've made me feel cheap and dirty

Would the gay lions be able to take steps to protect themselves from the sun? A damp tea towel on their head for example?

[delboy735]

Is the simple answer not "yes and no"?

Yes on the track, and yet on the road, no.

I remember back in the early 90's visiting friends on a regular basis that had a trip distance of 99mls, that used to take 1.5 hrs door to door.....in a Ford Granada 2.3.
Same trip today takes 2 hrs door to door.....in a 140bhp hatchback ( more power than the old bus )

So all that money was really wasted by the engineers, and then charged to us when new cars are purchased, as they are now actually slower

[AntiLagGC8]

Max_Torque said:

Here are two lists:

List 1. The things that make a modern car potentially faster:

1) More power
2) Better brakes
3) Better suspension (roll control, kinematics, damping, Stiffness etc etc)
4) More gears and much faster shifting
5) Stiffer bodyshell
6) Chassis Electronic Feature Content (ABS, DSC, brake steer, E diffs etc)
7) Much wider power band (high torque at low engine speed)
8) Better aerodynamics (less drag, lower lift)
9) Easier / less physical to drive (powersteer etc)
10) Significantly wider tyres which develop high grip through modern Silica enhanced compounds
11) Improved durability at high load (ie engines don't go "bang" like they used too etc


List 2. The things that make a modern car potentially slower:

1) Bit heavier.

By a bit heavier, presumably you mean a lot heavier.

I did laugh a little at point 11. Engines that don't go bang, what about turbo's and DPF's? Lots of modern cars have serious reliability issues and things often do go bang!

My RB5 is a 1200kg and is arguably a hot hatch in today's parlance. It was a Prodrive WR model and originally made 237bhp on the wrong fuel (they tested on 95 and the car was mapped from factory for 97) and a little over 250bhp on the correct fuel. It could achieve 0-60 in 4.9's and has truly incredible grip in all conditions.

How many modern hot hatches can outperform the car in a drag race to the obligatory 60 (the usual hot hatch measure) or on a typical rough British B road?

Colin Chapman said:

Adding power makes you faster on the straights; subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere

[delta0]

AntiLagGC8 said:

Max_Torque said:

Here are two lists:

List 1. The things that make a modern car potentially faster:

1) More power
2) Better brakes
3) Better suspension (roll control, kinematics, damping, Stiffness etc etc)
4) More gears and much faster shifting
5) Stiffer bodyshell
6) Chassis Electronic Feature Content (ABS, DSC, brake steer, E diffs etc)
7) Much wider power band (high torque at low engine speed)
8) Better aerodynamics (less drag, lower lift)
9) Easier / less physical to drive (powersteer etc)
10) Significantly wider tyres which develop high grip through modern Silica enhanced compounds
11) Improved durability at high load (ie engines don't go "bang" like they used too etc


List 2. The things that make a modern car potentially slower:

1) Bit heavier.

By a bit heavier, presumably you mean a lot heavier.

I did laugh a little at point 11. Engines that don't go bang, what about turbo's and DPF's? Lots of modern cars have serious reliability issues and things often do go bang!

My RB5 is a 1200kg and is arguably a hot hatch in today's parlance. It was a Prodrive WR model and originally made 237bhp on the wrong fuel (they tested on 95 and the car was mapped from factory for 97) and a little over 250bhp on the correct fuel. It could achieve 0-60 in 4.9's and has truly incredible grip in all conditions.

How many modern hot hatches can outperform the car in a drag race to the obligatory 60 (the usual hot hatch measure) or on a typical rough British B road?

Colin Chapman said:

Adding power makes you faster on the straights; subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere

Just picking out the very common hot hatch the Golf R will do 0-60 in 4.7 and that is normally a conservative number. Remap and you get a lot more too. What is the 30-70 of your RB5?

[amusingduck]

Max_Torque said:

amusingduck said:

Some Gump said:

I mean... 1 trillion is a lot of lions..

It is, but as far as i'm aware, just having loads of something doesn't make it fireproof.......



Surface Temperature of the sun, T=5,800K
Radius of the sun, R=6.995×108m
Stefan's constant,s=5.670×10-8Wm-2K-4

The equation for the thermal energy per second radiated is:

Power = 4pR2sT4.


So, power of the Sun is 3.95×10^26 Watts.



Power of a lion: Difficult to know, but lets assume for short periods they could put out the same power as a horse (which is actually about 1.5bhp)

Power of 1 trillion lions = 1.12 x 10^15 watts


So the Sun is, roughly, 3.53 x 10^11 times more powerful that a Trillion lions. Which even Jeremy Clarkson would have to admit is a LOT!


;-)

doingthehardsciencesoyoudon'thavetoo

The defence rests.

You may know your engines, but clearly you have no grasp on the intricacies of the sun and the king of the jungle's power.

Edited by amusingduck on Friday 4th September 07:21

[CorvetteConvert]

Of course they are faster.
It's not even in doubt.
New Focus RS 345 bhp. New Audi RS3 372 bhp.
My first Italian V12 had less than that!
VW Golf soon to have 400 bhp. That's less than 100 bhp off a Ferrari F40 FGS.
My Escort Cosworth with about a week of turbo lag had less power than my mum's Audi supermini which she uses solely for shopping at 78 years young.
Cars are way faster now. Hatchbacks which will do any job for you getting to 60 in under 5 seconds. That is the same as a 911 from 2005.
We have never had it so good. Or fast.

[s m]

I'm guessing 300bhp, but you want to see stuff like S14 200SX vs GT86?
200bhp both, 1250 kg both, rwd coupes, similar

I reckon the 200SX might edge the acceleration / speed runs but then the GT86 would claw back economy and handling tests. You need a factory fresh car on both sides though - there's the rub