Are modern cars really faster than old ones?

Are modern cars really faster than old ones?

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Hungrymc

6,642 posts

136 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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s m said:
Hungrymc said:
s m said:
I'm guessing 300bhp, but you want to see stuff like S14 200SX vs GT86?
200bhp both, 1250 kg both, rwd coupes, similar

I reckon the 200SX might edge the acceleration / speed runs but then the GT86 would claw back economy and handling tests. You need a factory fresh car on both sides though - there's the rub
But a GT86 isn't even engineered to be quick. It has a specific goal which is to be balanced and to slide at low speeds. The engineers even put it on skinny hard Tyres to keep low limits.

Modern version of a 200SX (engineered to a similar goal) 370Z? 235i (a stretch maybe)? TTS?
A 370Z has half as much power again as the older Nissan - a 300ZX would be a better comparison

Bear in mind the 200SX was meant to be a fun car too 20 years back. If it was all about speed it wouldn't have narrower/smaller tyres than the GT86. The big GT was the 300ZX
Apart from more torque it's very similar to the ethos of the GT 86 - a 2+2 designed to be slid around and driven for fun! The manner of execution might have changed over 2 decades but fun slidey cars aren't just the preserve of n/a engines even if they are your personal preference
You're making lots of points that I didn't .... and then disagreeing with them.

The twice the power comment - yep, that's part of progress, as is clever diffs, clever gear boxes, better geometry etc etc



s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Friday 4th September 2015
quotequote all
Hungrymc said:
s m said:
Hungrymc said:
s m said:
I'm guessing 300bhp, but you want to see stuff like S14 200SX vs GT86?
200bhp both, 1250 kg both, rwd coupes, similar

I reckon the 200SX might edge the acceleration / speed runs but then the GT86 would claw back economy and handling tests. You need a factory fresh car on both sides though - there's the rub
But a GT86 isn't even engineered to be quick. It has a specific goal which is to be balanced and to slide at low speeds. The engineers even put it on skinny hard Tyres to keep low limits.

Modern version of a 200SX (engineered to a similar goal) 370Z? 235i (a stretch maybe)? TTS?
A 370Z has half as much power again as the older Nissan - a 300ZX would be a better comparison

Bear in mind the 200SX was meant to be a fun car too 20 years back. If it was all about speed it wouldn't have narrower/smaller tyres than the GT86. The big GT was the 300ZX
Apart from more torque it's very similar to the ethos of the GT 86 - a 2+2 designed to be slid around and driven for fun! The manner of execution might have changed over 2 decades but fun slidey cars aren't just the preserve of n/a engines even if they are your personal preference
You're making lots of points that I didn't .... and then disagreeing with them.

The twice the power comment - yep, that's part of progress, as is clever diffs, clever gear boxes, better geometry etc etc
A 370Z is more of a modern day 300ZX - that's a closer comparison

My initial reply was more aimed at the OP though

RB Will

9,662 posts

239 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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ORD said:
I will. You cannot possibly be driving so as to be able to stop within the distance you can see in the circumstances you describe. Either that or you're full of st smile
no need to make stuff up, how would using made up examples help get a point across?
Your assumption is almost entirely incorrect, I'm not going to say it never happens, WE ALL have moments of madness or misjudge roads we don't know occasionally. But if making minor mistakes every now and again makes someone a liability on the road then I think we all better sell up and start walking.

Anyway back to the topic. I think the Impreza and Evo series best show how progress has been made. The cars have stayed pretty much the same power over 15 years but despite putting on more weight have gotten quicker with each generation.

Another more vague example could be to look at some American iron.
1960s Dodge Charger. 7.0 V8 425bhp weight 3970lbs 0-60 6.5 1/4 in 15 60-0 144ft

2015 Charger 6.4V8 485bhp weight 4400lbs 0-60 4.3 1/4 in 12.4 60-0 less than 120ft





J4CKO

41,284 posts

199 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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RB Will said:
ORD said:
You sound like an extremely dangerous driver and a street racer. Here's hoping that you lose your licence fairly soon!
18 years of driving, no points, no cars smashed up, highest scoring employee in the driving assessment at a firm with over 100 employees, never been in a street race, friends and family feel safer with me driving than anyone else they know but yeah you go ahead and think what you like smile
Never been in a street race ?

You said this a few posts back.

"Recent trip to Wales case in point. My diesel (184bhp) Octavia estate was hanging onto the back of my mates Supercharged Exige at anything up to unmentionable speeds, whilst leaving other mates in a RX8 and 360bhp Audi S3 for dead. Also broke the egos of a 911 and M3 CSL on the Evo Triangle."


Which sounds to me very much like street racing, as, correct me if I am wrong, the Evo triangle, is road based, and not a weirdly shaped circuit ?




ohtari

805 posts

143 months

Friday 4th September 2015
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
RB Will said:
ORD said:
You sound like an extremely dangerous driver and a street racer. Here's hoping that you lose your licence fairly soon!
18 years of driving, no points, no cars smashed up, highest scoring employee in the driving assessment at a firm with over 100 employees, never been in a street race, friends and family feel safer with me driving than anyone else they know but yeah you go ahead and think what you like smile
Never been in a street race ?

You said this a few posts back.

"Recent trip to Wales case in point. My diesel (184bhp) Octavia estate was hanging onto the back of my mates Supercharged Exige at anything up to unmentionable speeds, whilst leaving other mates in a RX8 and 360bhp Audi S3 for dead. Also broke the egos of a 911 and M3 CSL on the Evo Triangle."


Which sounds to me very much like street racing, as, correct me if I am wrong, the Evo triangle, is road based, and not a weirdly shaped circuit ?
Oh ffs rolleyes

Don't come on here and play the "holier than thou" card. There isn't a petrolhead alive that hasn't "given it some" off the lights at a a juction, or "kept up with" a faster car and/or driver down a road.

How many times do you read on here about "leaving them behind" when entering a NSL zone? Or going for a romp/hoon/blast/etc. down a good country road?

We're all on here for our love of cars and/or bikes and/or speed. So cut the crap.

B'stard Child

28,321 posts

245 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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clap

CorvetteConvert

7,897 posts

213 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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Of oourse we all have sped at some stage. Show me a 997 turbo or Nissan GTR driver who has never gone above 70 and I will show you a liar.

I love American cars as they are the best value sports/other cars on Earth, esp used and you take a the new Corvette. 640 bhp out of the crate from a pushrod 2v per cylinder V8. With 1,000 bhp readily available when needed. The Corvette 5.7 litre of the late 80s had the same power as a current Mini diesel!
The huge 70s muscle cars with 7.4 litres doing 8 mpg had the same power as a Golf R has now.

Think cars might have got faster!

CorvetteConvert

7,897 posts

213 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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RB Will.
Never been in a street race...you said you had...which is it?

Monkeylegend

26,226 posts

230 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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Ahem..... F1 cars are slower today than 10 years ago.

CorvetteConvert

7,897 posts

213 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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Is that right? Are all lap records over 10 years of age then? If so I am surprised but legislation limits race cars of all sorts today, from Nascar, through Sprint Cars and Drag Racing, to whatever, so is a different thing to the OP's point, road cars.

JockySteer

1,407 posts

115 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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RB Will said:
Its largely irrelevant with everyday drivers. There is such a broad talent spread and any high performance car, old or new can only use so much potential on the road without being silly.

Recent trip to Wales case in point. My diesel (184bhp) Octavia estate was hanging onto the back of my mates Supercharged Exige at anything up to unmentionable speeds, whilst leaving other mates in a RX8 and 360bhp Audi S3 for dead. Also broke the egos of a 911 and M3 CSL on the Evo Triangle.

What you think would be vast differences in speed are not so much over the short straights on a good road. Despite having twice the power of my Skoda the M3CSL was pulling 2 car lengths down a 200m straight which obviously all vanished as soon as I hit the brakes 0.5 sec later.

Other notable performances include leaving a supercharged Atom in a Corolla and a captain big bks who thought he was the fastest thing on earth on his R1, yes he beat me down a dual carriageway in my Forester but as soon as we got on the country roads I left him behind and he fell off trying to keep up and the guy in his E92 M3 that couldnt shake my OHs standard 12 year old Mini off

Funnily enough the only people that have ever got away from me on a country road are 2 friends of mine both of which have a history of spectacular crashes

the general public just dont realise how far a car can be pushed. Even car people. Back in my youth I knew a fair few boy racers who thought they were fast, I took them out and they crapped themselves and Im pretty confident that if I were to go out with a competent rally driver the difference in ability would be the same again.
If that is all true, (which I MASSIVELY doubt) they probably saw you as a nutter in a Skoda who was prepared to risk their licence, or kill themselves. Touch wood it's the first. You shouldn't be on the road IMO.

Edited by JockySteer on Friday 4th September 16:34


Edited by JockySteer on Friday 4th September 16:34

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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RB Will...you have angered the lions.




Blanchimont

4,076 posts

121 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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I think they are.

You take even previous generation like a Fiesta ST, and compare it to the new one, the new one is seen to be the better car and would be quicker point to point than its predecessor.

If you were to take something like a Mk5 Golf GTI, and a new RenaultSport Clio.
Both around 200hp.
Both Double clutch transmission.
Around the same weight. (Golf 100kgs more)

Which would win?

Personally, with the latest incarnation of suspension geometry, engine mapping and the progress of development including tyres I think that the little Clio would be quicker.

To me, I think that newer cars are quicker, it's like comparing Soul and Efficiency. New cars are efficient and naffing fast p2p machines, but lack the sort of involvement that old cars do. Also new ones don't make us want to just go for a drive like old ones do. Old cars have something about them that a new car can ever match.
Tactility and passion are 2 big ones.

Which would you rather.

A Golf G60, or a Mk7 Golf R?

We all know which would be quicker, but which would you rather go for a drive in, or take the scenic route home in?


mercer868

50 posts

115 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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RB Will said:
the general public just dont realise how far a car can be pushed. Even car people. Back in my youth I knew a fair few boy racers who thought they were fast, I took them out and they crapped themselves and Im pretty confident that if I were to go out with a competent rally driver the difference in ability would be the same again.
Do we expect to see you in the WRC line up next season then RB?.. Ooh remember, bring your skoda, you want to give the rest of the pack a chance at least!

Also, lost an R1 and he "fell off"? You must be in a world of mario kart, drop a banana did we?

Edited by mercer868 on Friday 4th September 16:44

daveco

4,122 posts

206 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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Modern cars are of course faster but I often wondered if both were in the hands of a skilled driver and on modern sticky tyres...

Nissan GTR
vs
Jag XJ220

scratchchin

It appears from online lap records (Nurburgring) the most recent GTR is about 20 seconds faster against a timed lap of the XJ220 way back in 1992, the latter obviously on 1992 rubber...


Edited by daveco on Friday 4th September 17:06

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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The OP seems to be asking two things: 1) Have cars got faster or slower? and 2) are cars more focused and raw than they used to be?

I believe the answer to 1) is 'yes, they've got faster', because if you look at lap times for the Ring, Fiorano, Hethel or even magazine tests, there is a general trend for newer cars to trump older cars, and I don't believe it's marketing. A Nissan GTR R35 is unquestionably faster than an R34 or R33 in terms of lap times, acceleration, cornering and braking and the same is true of most newer cars (Lotus 3-11 vs 2-11, Exige V6 vs Exige 4cyl, Porsche 991 vs 997 vs 996 etc). Enthusiastic owners will always harp on about their cars being better than the latest model they can't afford yet, but get both out on track and the results are plain to see. When reading PH I was suckered into thinking that the new Exige V6 was similar in performance if not even faster than the old one, but I drove both back to back the difference was hilariously the other way. Yes, weight has increased, but power has too by quite a margin - in my lifetime the latest entry level Ferrari has gone from 237bhp to 660bhp; weight means the 488 isn't 2.7 times faster, but it's still quite a lot faster. Yes, in motorsport nannying regulations mean that F1 gets pegged back every few years and yes I believe they've gone too far this time, but as above, that's just motorsport - road cars march on unabated.

As for the reasons, yes, as the OP says, tyres have got stickier and better, dampers have got markedly better and knowledge of how to tune suspension has too. Good old power to weight ratios have increased though for cars with a real intent to be performance cars. Lump them all together and we're sub 7 at the ring now for road cars, whereas 20 years ago sub 8 was quick (which brings us back to the R33 GTR).

As for the second question, how focused a car is, that's a trickier one. I don't think there's any question that modern cars have got smoother and more refined. Throttle pedals are not connected to engines anymore and virtually all have an electronic lag and even a Porsche GT3 is stuffed with sound deadening and has ePAS.

In terms of driving enjoyment, if we ignore Lotus then I'd rather drive a 1990s version of almost any manufacturer's car than the present day version (F30 vs E36, 208 vs 205 etc), and I suspect that's true of lots of cars I haven't actually tried as well (355 vs 488, 993 vs 991 etc). In terms of focus, a lot of cars like the new Civic Type R have more of a focus on performance than they used to, but they still tend to lack feedback and involvement and to be honest, lap times are irrelevant on the public road anyway (and even on track days, where lap timing is banned), so I'll take the less refined older cars every time for pure driving pleasure. This is probably why McLaren F1s are now worth more than P1s and a special 993 like the RS is worth more than a brand new 991!

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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RobM77 said:
The OP seems to be asking two things: 1) Have cars got faster or slower? and 2) are cars more focused and raw than they used to be?
The OP asked the one simple question, didn't agree with the answer, tried and failed to switch the question.

The answer is yes, modern cars really are faster than old equivalent versions.

Hungrymc

6,642 posts

136 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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s m said:
A 370Z is more of a modern day 300ZX - that's a closer comparison

My initial reply was more aimed at the OP though
I disagree (one hairy sports coupe other a big sporty GT?) and I stand 100% by a GT86 had different goals than a 200sx (you can even see this in their Bhp compared to their piers) but it's ok to view it differently and I accept your view is differnt to mine.

What about a 993 vs 991?
Even a 240TT vs a TTRS?
Mk3 RS turbo vs a Focus RS?

None of it makes older cars bad, and there will always be some exceptions, but in general, newer cars are quicker.

Meoricin

2,880 posts

168 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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amusingduck said:
I mean... 1 trillion is a lot of lions..
How much energy can a lion put out?

braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Friday 4th September 2015
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RB Will said:
Its largely irrelevant with everyday drivers. There is such a broad talent spread and any high performance car, old or new can only use so much potential on the road without being silly.
You make a point which is off-topic to the thread, to tell stories about how 'great' a driver you are.

You in the Exige, or CSL, or S3 or whatever would have pulled away from you in the Octavia. Which is irrelevant to the thread too.

Perhaps you make a point about the law of diminishing returns - all cars are getting so capable these days, that the relative advantage of faster cars is less than it used to be. But in any case, modern cars very much are faster than old ones.