Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016

[rubystone]

Scuffers said:

When?

And with respect, neither toto or lauda are in a position yo offer a deal off cuff, this is Mercedes, not some small private co. I am 100% sure that would require at least to be nodded by the board.

On Saturday, in front of several hundred people, Ross Brawn stated that pretty much all decisions in th F1 team required Board sign-off. Given what was at stake, and subsequently confirmed by Wolff later, the deal with Red Bull did indeed go to the Board. Bernie is just stirring....and no doubt this is to push the 'cheap' engine...

[JonRB]

rubystone said:

Bernie is just stirring....and no doubt this is to push the 'cheap' engine...

Always an agenda with Bernie. Always.

[groomi]

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Unfortunately, F1 seems no longer to be interested in just having engine suppliers - they always want to end up running a works team.

Such a shame Cosworth and Pure didn't stick with their planned engines, but then where would the money come from to compete against the likes of Mercedes?

that's horribly nieve...

Manufactures have been running teams from day 1,

Apart from the obvious (Ferrari), we have had:

Alfa Romeo SpA
Officine Alfieri Maserati
Equipe Gordini
OSCA Automobili
Scuderia Lancia
Porsche
David Brown Corporation (Aston)
Automobili Turismo e Sport
Honda

(and that's just pre-1970)

Yep, there's a reason they're all pre-1970 - they're from a bygone era when a bit of ingenuity could make a huge difference or a big wad of cash could by a whole car for you to put your star driver in, as opposed to today when it costs millions to find a fraction of a second and customer cars are banned.

Manufacturers and privateers have always been in the mix and I'm not suggesting that should be any different now, but because of the finances or the politics or both of F1, no independent engine manufacturers want to take part and so privateers are automatically at a disadvantage.

tosh.

here's the list 1980-

Ferrari
Renault
Alfa Romeo
Zakspeed
Osella
Life
Sauber
Arrows
Ford (Jaguar)
Toyota
Honda
BMW
Mercedes

So you've listed the manufacturers in F1 since 1980 - what does than answer?

[Scuffers]

groomi said:

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Yep, there's a reason they're all pre-1970 - they're from a bygone era when a bit of ingenuity could make a huge difference or a big wad of cash could by a whole car for you to put your star driver in, as opposed to today when it costs millions to find a fraction of a second and customer cars are banned.

Manufacturers and privateers have always been in the mix and I'm not suggesting that should be any different now, but because of the finances or the politics or both of F1, no independent engine manufacturers want to take part and so privateers are automatically at a disadvantage.

tosh.

here's the list 1980-

Ferrari
Renault
Alfa Romeo
Zakspeed
Osella
Life
Sauber
Arrows
Ford (Jaguar)
Toyota
Honda
BMW
Mercedes

So you've listed the manufacturers in F1 since 1980 - what does than answer?

well, to quote you're good self:

groomi said:

Yep, there's a reason they're all pre-1970 - they're from a bygone era when a bit of ingenuity could make a huge difference or a big wad of cash could by a whole car for you to put your star driver in, as opposed to today when it costs millions to find a fraction of a second and customer cars are banned.

so, you suggested that after 1970, the bygone era, and that after that it was not the case.

Well, how do you explain the second list after 1980?

your original premiss was:

groomi said:

Unfortunately, F1 seems no longer to be interested in just having engine suppliers - they always want to end up running a works team.

Such a shame Cosworth and Pure didn't stick with their planned engines, but then where would the money come from to compete against the likes of Mercedes?

Look, just accept the point, you were wrong, simple eh?

[groomi]

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Yep, there's a reason they're all pre-1970 - they're from a bygone era when a bit of ingenuity could make a huge difference or a big wad of cash could by a whole car for you to put your star driver in, as opposed to today when it costs millions to find a fraction of a second and customer cars are banned.

Manufacturers and privateers have always been in the mix and I'm not suggesting that should be any different now, but because of the finances or the politics or both of F1, no independent engine manufacturers want to take part and so privateers are automatically at a disadvantage.

tosh.

here's the list 1980-

Ferrari
Renault
Alfa Romeo
Zakspeed
Osella
Life
Sauber
Arrows
Ford (Jaguar)
Toyota
Honda
BMW
Mercedes

So you've listed the manufacturers in F1 since 1980 - what does than answer?

well, to quote you're good self:

groomi said:

Yep, there's a reason they're all pre-1970 - they're from a bygone era when a bit of ingenuity could make a huge difference or a big wad of cash could by a whole car for you to put your star driver in, as opposed to today when it costs millions to find a fraction of a second and customer cars are banned.

so, you suggested that after 1970, the bygone era, and that after that it was not the case.

Well, how do you explain the second list after 1980?

your original premiss was:

groomi said:

Unfortunately, F1 seems no longer to be interested in just having engine suppliers - they always want to end up running a works team.

Such a shame Cosworth and Pure didn't stick with their planned engines, but then where would the money come from to compete against the likes of Mercedes?

Look, just accept the point, you were wrong, simple eh?

Wow. Frankly I'm baffled as to why you're trying to make an argument.

My point quite clearly is that there is no independent engine option anymore. Whether works teams did or did not exist before is irrelevant to my point, and not something which I am arguing.

Hey-ho. Goodnight.

[JonRB]

groomi said:

Wow. Frankly I'm baffled as to why you're trying to make an argument.

Because Internet Forum.

Irony is that PH is the best around.

[Scuffers]

groomi said:

Wow. Frankly I'm baffled as to why you're trying to make an argument.

My point quite clearly is that there is no independent engine option anymore. Whether works teams did or did not exist before is irrelevant to my point, and not something which I am arguing.

Hey-ho. Goodnight.

One word.


Honda.

[AW111]

Scuffers said:

tosh.

here's the list 1980-

Ferrari
Renault
Alfa Romeo
Zakspeed
Osella
Life
Sauber
Arrows
Ford (Jaguar)
Toyota
Honda
BMW
Mercedes

How many of those manufacturers were selling engines to 3rd party customers?

[Scuffers]

AW111 said:

How many of those manufacturers were selling engines to 3rd party customers?

at the time, all of them.

the only reason we have a problem now is because Red Bull have p1ssed everybody off.

Both Ferrari and Merc would have supplied, but the way Red Bull have stropped around, both have though better of it.

To be blunt, F1 may well be better off without them, yes, it's 2 teams, but I am sure at least one of them will be brought if not both, preferably by somebody that has better negotiating skills than current Red Bull management.

the alternative is Merc stick two fingers up, along with Renault and likely Honda too, leaving just Ferrari (and who knows what they will do?)

[groomi]

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Wow. Frankly I'm baffled as to why you're trying to make an argument.

My point quite clearly is that there is no independent engine option anymore. Whether works teams did or did not exist before is irrelevant to my point, and not something which I am arguing.

Hey-ho. Goodnight.

One word.


Honda.

Not available until 2017 to anyone else but McLaren.

For all his faults, Ron saw this coming.

[Scuffers]

groomi said:

Not available until 2017 to anyone else but McLaren.

For all his faults, Ron saw this coming.

so the fact the head of Honda on TV said they are talking to Red Bull about 2016 was my imagination then?

And Ron did not see this coming, that's a total distortion of his position, namely:

Merc wanted to buy McLaren - Ron saw them off
Merc brought Brawn
Ron got it in his head that Merc would not treat them the same as the (new) works team, (not helped by Hamilton jumping ship.)
Tom then thought that if Honda could come up with something better then Merc would be out of the picture.

subsequently, it's all turned to st for them, even before the engine dramas of 2015, their car was crap with the best engine out there in 2014.

I actually suspect a lot of this is simply that Ron got on with Norbert and does not get on with Toto as well as not wanting to pay for engines (which they didn't before Merc brought Brawn).

[DataHamster]

Scuffers said:

so the fact the head of Honda on TV said they are talking to Red Bull about 2016 was my imagination then?

Not your imagination at all. But perhaps you missed the bit where the Head of Honda went on to say that Ron Dennis had expressed dissatisfaction with this and that, out of deference to McLaren, Honda were not pursuing the Red Bull angle. Or words to that effect.

[Scuffers]

DataHamster said:

Not your imagination at all. But perhaps you missed the bit where the Head of Honda went on to say that Ron Dennis had expressed dissatisfaction with this and that, out of deference to McLaren, Honda were not pursuing the Red Bull angle. Or words to that effect.

I suspect that if Honda's PU was any good, the deal would have been done despite Rons objections.

Honda are paying the money remember....

[groomi]

Scuffers said:

DataHamster said:

Not your imagination at all. But perhaps you missed the bit where the Head of Honda went on to say that Ron Dennis had expressed dissatisfaction with this and that, out of deference to McLaren, Honda were not pursuing the Red Bull angle. Or words to that effect.

I suspect that if Honda's PU was any good, the deal would have been done despite Rons objections.

Honda are paying the money remember....

I suspect you're only interested in furthering your own argument, for which there is no answer because nobody is arguing with you.

I reiterate that it is a shame the Cosworth and Pure engine programmes did not come to fruition, thus giving the teams no choice but to buy customer versions of the works engines (which as Ron Dennis correctly predicted will never be allowed to beat the works cars).

[Scuffers]

groomi said:

I suspect you're only interested in furthering your own argument, for which there is no answer because nobody is arguing with you.

I reiterate that it is a shame the Cosworth and Pure engine programmes did not come to fruition, thus giving the teams no choice but to buy customer versions of the works engines (which as Ron Dennis correctly predicted will never be allowed to beat the works cars).

I'm arguing because You keep stating bks as fact.


So red bull never won 4 WC'S with a customer Renault engine?

[andyps]

Based on all the comments made about the cost to the car manufacturers for development of the current power units it is pretty clear that Cosworth and Pure or anyone else would not be able to make a commercial case for them. The independent teams are allegedly paying between €20-30m for a power unit supply at the moment. If the development costs had to be recovered by the manufacturer this would be somewhere around €100m if there was just one customer, reducing down with more. I doubt Sauber could afford that even if Cosworth could find the initial cash flow.

Back to Red Bull - Mattessich has made threats recently that he has not gone through with so clearly this is all just posturing and sour grapes. I'm sure it was said that if there was no 2016 engine on offer from Mercedes or Ferrari by the end of October they would withdraw (I haven't paid specific attention so may not be fully correct here). We are now at the end of November and they have no confirmed deal yet but have pretty much committed to compete next year. It reduces future negotiation ability when you don't follow through with threats. I still think the main reason Mercedes and Red Bull refused was because of the potential whinging from Hormer if Red Bull don't win - it certainly wouldn't be down to the chassis.

Time for this again:

[Vaud]

Looking forward.

Assuming they get an engine.

It's Newey and team I feel sorry for when Red Bull bosses start saying "we have the engine and a great partner in ABC-windup-elastic-band-company but clearly the chassis is a great disappointment and Adrian Newey is clearly not delivering and we are severing his contract for non-delivery"

[andyps]

Vaud said:

Looking forward.

Assuming they get an engine.

It's Newey and team I feel sorry for when Red Bull bosses start saying "we have the engine and a great partner in ABC-windup-elastic-band-company but clearly the chassis is a great disappointment and Adrian Newey is clearly not delivering and we are severing his contract for non-delivery"

Seen outside the Red Bull factory:


Would be great to hear that sort of honesty from them though, and would give me some respect for them as racers were they actually to do so.

[Some Gump]

Scuffers said:

I'm arguing because You keep stating bks as fact.

Is this the most ironic post in the history of PH?

[revrange]

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Not available until 2017 to anyone else but McLaren.

For all his faults, Ron saw this coming.

so the fact the head of Honda on TV said they are talking to Red Bull about 2016 was my imagination then?

And Ron did not see this coming, that's a total distortion of his position, namely:

Ron turned around to Merc having just been fined £100m, and said, so are you making your 1/2 out to the FIA or me and I'll pay the lot? (which went down well)
Merc wanted to buy McLaren - Ron saw them off
Merc brought Brawn
Ron got it in his head that Merc would not treat them the same as the (new) works team, (not helped by Hamilton jumping ship.)
Tom then thought that if Honda could come up with something better then Merc would be out of the picture.

subsequently, it's all turned to st for them, even before the engine dramas of 2015, their car was crap with the best engine out there in 2014.(problem was fuel as well left them 40 bhp down on works team)

I actually suspect a lot of this is simply that Ron got on with Norbert and does not get on with Toto as well as not wanting to pay for engines (which they didn't before Merc brought Brawn).

just added another little bit there