So, I ditched the RX100...

So, I ditched the RX100...

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JustinP1

Original Poster:

13,330 posts

229 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
The RX100 deservedly gets a lot of love. But I've fallen out of love with it.

After another thread on here on budget DSLR v RX100 I thought I'd recount my recent experience, and my 'best of both worlds' solution:

For the last 3 years I've been a two camera guy. Canon 6D and primes for getting great photos, and the RX100 for family trips with my wife and 4 year old daughter. For landscapes and static objects the RX100 is great, however I've found when the conditions get challenging (like a child running around, or imperfect lighting) I was always making excuses for it:

"If it were just that bit lighter, it wouldn't have been so grainy", "She's just out of focus.", "Looks a little bit 'flat', but at least we had a camera with us."... I'd taken some 'good' shots with the RX100, but missed too many great ones, and had to dump way too many.

Three weeks ago, we'd booked a trip for a week around Paris and Disneyland. Photos that we'd look at for the rest of our lives. However, the camera would need to be carried by me for 10-12 hours a day, and fit inside 'carry on' hand luggage. So, the 6D, a zoom lens and camera bag were out of the question all ways round.

So, I discarded the camera bag and got a glass screen protector and a rubberised shell to fit over the 6D like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CZ9RBQ0?psc=...

I discarded the 6D strap as it was always uncomfortable to me and screamed 'I have a big camera' from 100 yards and got this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00LI7QNQO?psc=...

That's a very good strap with quick release toggles so you can detach it, put the straps on different places and put on a wrist strap like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CBPIRSY?psc=...

Finally, I couldn't have a heavy lens on the end of the 6D, I wanted something compact. The 50mm Canon prime is pretty compact, but a bit narrow to have as my only lens, so I gave the Canon 40mm f2.8 STM pancake lens a punt: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0089SWZDU?psc=...

(I don't work for Amazon, but I did buy all those things there and it was easier to link than pictures.)


The outcome:

Ergonomics

The 6D almost looks like it doesn't have a lens on it, and cut down on the weight a lot. This means that the camera hangs flat on the strap without toppling forward. The adjustable strap was pulled tight, and instantly loosened to take a photo. Most of the time I didn't bother putting the lens cap back on the lens as the glass is small and recessed and in little danger. Had it over my shoulder all day, and was perfectly comfortable either down at my hip, or pulled tighter over my stomach/chest.

Image quality

The 40mm lens at just over £100 is a bargain, and a perfect walk around lens IMHO. Sharpness is very slightly better than my Sigma 30mm f1.4 and identical to my Canon 50mm f1.4. Fully open at f2.8 it lets in an identical amount of light than the others at the same aperture. Slight vignetting fully open, but, a small trade off and not entirely bad, and can be fixed in post.

Getting the key shots

This was the killer. Portraits are detailed and look '3D'. Colours are true and landscapes have depth. I can stop action dead with fast shutter speed. I can take a photo under the Disney Castle of the dragon in near darkness, and at ISO 12,000 it looks like it was well lit. I can take photos of the firework display at night and get great shots.
Just for a fair comparison, I did take the RX100 to Disney for one of the days. I got one shot that I was happy with, and that was simply the composition rather than the quality of the photo - I wished I'd shot it with the 6D.


The outcome - I've fallen in love with taking the 6D pretty much everywhere we go as a family, and I wonder why I didn't take the plunge into doing that in the first place. The 6D of course does not fit in my pocket, but taking it around my shoulder is worth it for the fact that the shots are better in quality, and better in quantity as so much fewer are dumped.

Where does that leave the RX100? That's the thing - when I want to go out to take some photos it won't come with me.

But, what about when a DSLR really can't be taken with me, or is too obtrusive like a restaurant? There's only one thing more portable than the RX100, and that's an iPhone. And for posed photos and the odd snap, the new one is pretty bloody good.

DibblyDobbler

11,257 posts

196 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
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Interesting write up smile

I went a slightly different way - started with a 6D, added a 100D - ended up taking the 100D everywhere and the poor old 6D was left gathering dust! I did some quite detailed checking of image quality and in good conditions I can barely tell the difference. So I now have a much lighter camera bag and about £2k back in my bank account! 40mm pancake on a 100D... hmm... smaller than an iPhone?!

JustinP1

Original Poster:

13,330 posts

229 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
You know what? I went through exactly the same thought process last night.

The 100D at £250 would halve the weight and I think drop 30-40% of the bulk.

However, my sticking point was that I thought I would fall into the trap of leaving the 6D to fall fallow! smile


The 100D with any of the new 24mm, 40mm and 50mm primes would be a killer combo for £350.

MysteryLemon

4,968 posts

190 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
As great as the RX100 may be, it still falls into the trap of a dying market. It's better than any smart phone camera but is the gap big enough to warrent carrying a smartphone and an extra device for taking pictures? Most people would say no.

I'm happy to lug around my D7000 on days out with the kids where I know I'm going to be taking pictures. For everything else, the 20mp camera in my Lumia 930 does an acceptable job. Most stuff I take never leaves the screen so how good does it all really need to be?

Otispunkmeyer

12,557 posts

154 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
Not a job for a Mirror-less? Granted to stick with Canon you'd need an EOS M3 and by accounts, Canon are still missing the mark in Mirror-less when compared to Sony and Olympus. But for those you'd need to then go down the route of buying lenses for their systems etc and I don't think something like the Sony A7 is particularly any smaller than, say, a 100D in the grand scheme of things so you'd have to go APS-C in sensor size.


mr_fibuli

1,109 posts

194 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
That's a good point, quite a few times now I've not bothered with my Nex, and just thought "sod it, i'll just use my phone". And last time I did take the Nex to an air show I forgot to put a memory card in it.

JustinP1

Original Poster:

13,330 posts

229 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
That was actually my 'Option B'. That is ditch the 6D as well as the RX100 and go for the A7r or the A7r ii.

Zeiss make a couple of stonkingly sharp primes for it, and for the rest I can get an adaptor to use my Canon lenses.

The downside is it's two grand plus. That said, the 6D was £1200, and the RX100 £300 and it does the job of both, and beats them both comfortably.

rich888

2,610 posts

198 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 what an excellent write-up and you have certainly complicated the decision making process, yet and at the same time made it somewhat clearer as to what I'm after.

I find myself despairing sometimes when trying to photograph the kids because they never sit still for very long so it really the case of take the pics as and when the opportunity presents itself and I seem to get caught wanting a much higher shutter speed so switch to shutter priority, only to note the ISO values climbing quite dramatically, or I want to blur out the background so switch to aperture priority, only to watch the shutter speed drops down to say 1/30th which isn't good when the kids are moving so damn fast.

I've noticed that some of the photographs posted on PH seem to almost leap out of the screen and I would really like to achieve that effect.

The price of the 100D seems to be dropping quite nicely at the moment and I've just noticed that Jessops are now selling the 100D + 18-55 IS STM Lens for £332, and a 100D body only for £279, so it might be possible to acquire a body plus prime lens for not much more than £350. Am wondering whether John Lewis would price match this because they also offer a 3 year warranty (including accidental damage) for an extra £30.

DibblyDobbler, you have hit the nail on the head and your comments further increase the likelihood of me purchasing the 100D rather than a heaver and more expensive camera, I've viewed many photographs on here, especially the macro pics and I cannot fault the quality whatsoever, the quality of the photos is quite astonishing and just shows what can be achieved with a little bit of patience and attention to detail.

A friend of mine has been producing books for many years now using the online print company blurb.com and it really is quite amazing to actually see the photographs in a high-quality printed book, rather than on the screen, so I need to up the quality if I want to go down this route. Might actually have a few books printed as Christmas presents for the kids grand-parents.

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
rich888 said:
I find myself despairing sometimes when trying to photograph the kids because they never sit still for very long so it really the case of take the pics as and when the opportunity presents itself
For speed of shooting you definitely need a DSLR. Semi-depress shutter release to acquire focus then when that fleeting expression arrives, the camera will fire immediately.

rich888 said:
and I seem to get caught wanting a much higher shutter speed so switch to shutter priority, only to note the ISO values climbing quite dramatically, or I want to blur out the background so switch to aperture priority, only to watch the shutter speed drops down to say 1/30th which isn't good when the kids are moving so damn fast.
Simplest way is to leave in aperture priority, and turn Auto-ISO off. If you want a faster shutter speed, just increase the aperture. If you want an out of focus background, increase the aperture (note that will also make shutter speed faster not slower as you intimate). Bounce flash is a useful tool.

rich888 said:
I've noticed that some of the photographs posted on PH seem to almost leap out of the screen and I would really like to achieve that effect.
That's probably more to do with processing than the camera. Exposure, white balance, saturation, resizing, sharpening - all this is processing.

Craikeybaby

10,369 posts

224 months

Tuesday 15th September 2015
quotequote all
I'm another fan of the FF DSLR and 40mmSTM lens, although in my case I use it on an original 5D. My compact doesn't get a look in these days, as if I'm not taking the DSLR my iPhone is all I need.

rich888

2,610 posts

198 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
rich888 said:
I find myself despairing sometimes when trying to photograph the kids because they never sit still for very long so it really the case of take the pics as and when the opportunity presents itself
For speed of shooting you definitely need a DSLR. Semi-depress shutter release to acquire focus then when that fleeting expression arrives, the camera will fire immediately.

rich888 said:
and I seem to get caught wanting a much higher shutter speed so switch to shutter priority, only to note the ISO values climbing quite dramatically, or I want to blur out the background so switch to aperture priority, only to watch the shutter speed drops down to say 1/30th which isn't good when the kids are moving so damn fast.
Simplest way is to leave in aperture priority, and turn Auto-ISO off. If you want a faster shutter speed, just increase the aperture. If you want an out of focus background, increase the aperture (note that will also make shutter speed faster not slower as you intimate). Bounce flash is a useful tool.

rich888 said:
I've noticed that some of the photographs posted on PH seem to almost leap out of the screen and I would really like to achieve that effect.
That's probably more to do with processing than the camera. Exposure, white balance, saturation, resizing, sharpening - all this is processing.
Thanks for the tips which I've taken onboard, especially about turning off the auto-iso, must have missed that in the menu settings.

I think you misunderstood my comment about the decreasing shutter speed and depth of field, or perhaps I didn't make it clear in that when the settings are changed from 'shutter priority' to 'aperture priority' the shutter speed drops, and I can't figure out how to keep the shutter speed up whilst adjusting the aperture to blur out the background. Perhaps this can't be achieved without upgrading to a camera with a larger sensor, in which case which is the next step up from a 100D?

Will be looking to purchase a DSLR sometime later this year along with a couple of lenses, most probably a 100D due to its affordability, compact size and quality of images.

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
rich888 said:
I think you misunderstood my comment about the decreasing shutter speed and depth of field, or perhaps I didn't make it clear in that when the settings are changed from 'shutter priority' to 'aperture priority' the shutter speed drops, and I can't figure out how to keep the shutter speed up whilst adjusting the aperture to blur out the background.
Well, it's down to physics. For any given exposure, you either have a large aperture (big hole/low f-number) and fast shutter speed, or a small aperture and a slower shutter speed. The hole is smaller so it needs to be open for longer to let the same amount of light through. You wanted to 'blur out' the background, ie presumably make it out of focus, which is 'shallow depth of field' territory. You achieve shallow DOF by using a larger aperture. Hence for any given exposure, your shutter speed will be accordingly faster. Perhaps you're adjusting the aperture the wrong way?

JustinP1

Original Poster:

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
rich888 said:
JustinP1 what an excellent write-up and you have certainly complicated the decision making process, yet and at the same time made it somewhat clearer as to what I'm after.

I find myself despairing sometimes when trying to photograph the kids because they never sit still for very long so it really the case of take the pics as and when the opportunity presents itself and I seem to get caught wanting a much higher shutter speed so switch to shutter priority, only to note the ISO values climbing quite dramatically, or I want to blur out the background so switch to aperture priority, only to watch the shutter speed drops down to say 1/30th which isn't good when the kids are moving so damn fast.
You might find manual mode better then.

For me, the shutter speed needs to be fast enough - at least 1/100th for kids, even 1/250th if they are moving around.

Then aperture, if they are moving and not very far away from the camera I'll stop down just to give a wider range of 'sweet spot' distance from the camera which will be in focus.

If you do it that way you have the shutter and aperture as you want it, and you can leave ISO to auto. For me, I'll live with slight grain if I can capture the photo I want, not blurred and in focus.

What would help you above that would be to move to a 'faster' lens (one that lets in more light) so you have to rely less on pushing the ISO up. The cheapest way to do that is to go with a prime lens.

Edited by JustinP1 on Wednesday 16th September 10:36

Mr Will

13,719 posts

205 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
rich888 said:
I think you misunderstood my comment about the decreasing shutter speed and depth of field, or perhaps I didn't make it clear in that when the settings are changed from 'shutter priority' to 'aperture priority' the shutter speed drops, and I can't figure out how to keep the shutter speed up whilst adjusting the aperture to blur out the background.
Well, it's down to physics. For any given exposure, you either have a large aperture (big hole/low f-number) and fast shutter speed, or a small aperture and a slower shutter speed. The hole is smaller so it needs to be open for longer to let the same amount of light through. You wanted to 'blur out' the background, ie presumably make it out of focus, which is 'shallow depth of field' territory. You achieve shallow DOF by using a larger aperture. Hence for any given exposure, your shutter speed will be accordingly faster. Perhaps you're adjusting the aperture the wrong way?
I doubt he's adjusting it the wrong way, it's more likely the program inside the camera that is causing the issue. In aperture priority it will choose drop the ISO first, rather than increasing the shutter speed and keeping the ISO high. I believe it aims for 1/focal length, which may not be fast enough for fidgety children.

There are several very simple solutions. Firstly, selecting shutter priority should work. The will open up the aperture before increasing the ISO, so in low light the shots will be wide open (or close to it) anyway. If the ISO is sky-rocketing then it's because it needs to - there are only three variables. If you've fixed one (shutter) and hit the maximum of the second (aperture) then the only thing to do is increase the remaining one (ISO).

Turning auto-ISO off will also work, as long as you pin it to a high enough value - it will have to be something higher than the camera would have chosen in Av to be useful.

Finally, Manual with auto-ISO is made for situations like this. Assuming your camera supports it, you can set the aperture AND shutter speed and let the camera adjust the ISO to get the exposure correct.

It's all really a question of light though. If there isn't enough of it then you cannot have both low-ISO and a fast shutter speed.


Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
Simpler just to ditch Auto-ISO and then you know what's going on. Can't stand a camera that fights against me.

Mr Will

13,719 posts

205 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
Simpler just to ditch Auto-ISO and then you know what's going on. Can't stand a camera that fights against me.
Only simpler if you already understand what you are doing. If a camera fights against you then you need to learn how to use it properly - not just avoid the features you don't understand.

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
Mr Will said:
Only simpler if you already understand what you are doing. If a camera fights against you then you need to learn how to use it properly - not just avoid the features you don't understand.
Thanks, I couldn't have made my living as a photographer for 10 years without you.

Mr Will

13,719 posts

205 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
Mr Will said:
Only simpler if you already understand what you are doing. If a camera fights against you then you need to learn how to use it properly - not just avoid the features you don't understand.
Thanks, I couldn't have made my living as a photographer for 10 years without you.
Lewis Hamilton might be faster round a track without traction control, but that doesn't mean it's inappropriate for the rest of us on our commutes to work. Your experience might get you better results in full manual, but suggesting a less experienced photographer ignores one of the fundamental features of his camera just because you don't like it is terrible advice.

Auto-ISO is no more complicated than aperture priority or shutter priority. All three have their place. Every photographer (you included) will be a better photographer if learn how they work before they decide where they are or aren't appropriate for them. We all have room to improve our skills.

rich888

2,610 posts

198 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
Some excellent advice on here so thank you, I think it boils down to the fact that the RX100 software when in aperture priority mode assumes that you want the best quality ISO so drops the shutter speed down to achieve this, which is OK on a sunny day because the shutter speed remains reasonably high, but indoors or on a dull day the shutter speed drops down to 1/30th which results in blurry photographs.

A tripod would normally be the answer if photographing a static car, but when photographing fast moving kids is not really feasible plus they would probably knock the tripod over!

Now the 'min' and 'max' ISO values can be set in the parameters, but I still think it's down to physics in that a larger sensor would allow more light in, this in combination with a 24mm lens would probably help lift the shutter speeds in low light conditions and keep the ISO values lower, the size of the RX100 is of course the issue here.

I had a play around with the 100D in Jessops today and it certainly feels like a well put together bit of kit, there was a 7D next to it which kind of dwarfed it both in terms of size and price. Unfortunately the wife was at the side of me and she didn't look too chuffed, even though I pointed out what an absolute 'bargain' it was, so I had to abandon the Christmas present purchase till another day - damn!!!

Simpo Two

85,147 posts

264 months

Wednesday 16th September 2015
quotequote all
@ Will: I'd dispute that Auto-ISO is a 'fundamental feature' of a camera. It's an electronic add-on that, if this forum is anything to go by, does more to confuse than to solve problems, or help people understand what's going on in their camera.

Photography is actually simple. Box, hole, thing to cover hole. Adding a largely unecessary layer of complexity such as Auto-ISO, and then having to remember complex workarounds to defeat it, doesn't seem sensible to me. Just remove the first complexity! After all, the OP didn't even know it was enabled, and it seems it was actually stopping him achieving what he wanted.

I'm certainly no hairy-chested devotee of manual exposure; I only use it in the studio - partly because there's no choice but partly because it's not time-critical. Otherwise I mostly use Aperture Priority auto. Having only one variable to deal with means I know exactly what my camera's thinking and I can change it to suit changing situations in a second. Throw Auto-ISO into the mix and suddenly you're trying to turn left and the camera's trying to turn right.

But in summary, what counts most is the result, and the wonder of DSLRs is that different people use them in different ways. If you want to use ABS, DSC and Auto-XYZ and it works for you then carry on smile


Sorry, we seem to have wandered OT a bit.