Hot start problem
Discussion
The hot start problem has gone from very occasionally to every single time the engine is hot. I have to leave it for half an hour or bump start it.
Should I just buy the hot start kit or has anyone any other suggestions? I have checked the connection on the solenoid and the 100 amp fuse and they seem ok.
Should I just buy the hot start kit or has anyone any other suggestions? I have checked the connection on the solenoid and the 100 amp fuse and they seem ok.
Lots on this if you do a search.
Some will tell you the problem exists purely because TVR failed to fit a dedicated relay in the starter solenoid circuit, while this was certainly a school boy error by TVR there is actually more at play.
Its important to understand the problematic starter solenoid circuit passes through the Meta immobiliser system, which houses two tiny relays itself. One relay is rated for a higher amperage than the other, TVR in their wisdom chose to run the low amp ECU circuit through the higher amp relay and the far higher amp starter solenoid circuit through the lower amp relay.
The result is the little Meta relay is overloaded, over time it's contacts become pitted stressing the little relay coil further which can result in complete failure.
Nine times out of ten this wiring mistake from TVR will be the true cause of the infamous "Hot Start" problem, and actually has very little to do with the lack of dedicated starter solenoid circuit relay which should have been fitted at the factory but merely to protect and prolong the life of the contacts inside your ignition switch from excessive amps.
You can buy a so called "Hot Start" kit from a company called ModWise, it is actually nothing more than a simple relay, some cable and some basic instructions. While it is a good idea to install a relay where TVR neglected to it may not solve your problem.
The reason is that the damage to the contacts inside the low amp Meta immobiliser has almost certainly already taken place, no amount of "Hot Start" kits can reverse that damage.
Unfortunately the Meta relays are buried (& potted) inside the immobiliser so replacement isn't really practical unless you're a skilled electronics engineer familiar with such work.
In practice you are left with three options:
1. Recruit a professional alarm installer who is familiar with the TVR setup and the errors TVR made when they fitted it and have them to replace the whole alarm system
2. Buy a new Meta immobiliser from Abacus Alarms who will guide you in it's installation and help you pair the new unit with your existing alarm unit
3. Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit so the immobiliser has no involvement whatsoever
Option one could cost as much as £600 but is the belt & braces and professional solution
http://www.hf-solutions.co.uk/tvr/4586285532
Option two is around £250 and is more or less plug & play but you will need to remove your dash top (not that tricky really)
http://abacuscaralarms.co.uk/alarmshop/index.php?a...
Option three may seem like a bodge but actually works perfectly, it is also more or less free to do as you're just cutting a wire or two and making some new connections.
Then there is always option four which is the ModWise Hot Start kit but as I've already explained it may not fix the problem, worse still it may temporarily mask the true underlying fault that could easily come back to haunt you one dark rainy night when you least need it.
I just present the real facts surrounding the so called "Hot Start" issue, how you choose to tackle the issue is up to you.
If you did decide to do the bypass you needn't worry about security because you're only bypassing the immoiliser on the starter solenoid circuit, the circuit that powers up the ECU and in turn the fuel pump (3 second priming pulse buzz you hear) continues to be controlled by your immobiliser.
After the bypass you will be able to crank the engine on the key even without disengaging the immobiliser, but the car still wont start because the ECU will remain dead until you hit your alarm fob and bring it alive.
Hope all this helps?
Some will tell you the problem exists purely because TVR failed to fit a dedicated relay in the starter solenoid circuit, while this was certainly a school boy error by TVR there is actually more at play.
Its important to understand the problematic starter solenoid circuit passes through the Meta immobiliser system, which houses two tiny relays itself. One relay is rated for a higher amperage than the other, TVR in their wisdom chose to run the low amp ECU circuit through the higher amp relay and the far higher amp starter solenoid circuit through the lower amp relay.
The result is the little Meta relay is overloaded, over time it's contacts become pitted stressing the little relay coil further which can result in complete failure.
Nine times out of ten this wiring mistake from TVR will be the true cause of the infamous "Hot Start" problem, and actually has very little to do with the lack of dedicated starter solenoid circuit relay which should have been fitted at the factory but merely to protect and prolong the life of the contacts inside your ignition switch from excessive amps.
You can buy a so called "Hot Start" kit from a company called ModWise, it is actually nothing more than a simple relay, some cable and some basic instructions. While it is a good idea to install a relay where TVR neglected to it may not solve your problem.
The reason is that the damage to the contacts inside the low amp Meta immobiliser has almost certainly already taken place, no amount of "Hot Start" kits can reverse that damage.
Unfortunately the Meta relays are buried (& potted) inside the immobiliser so replacement isn't really practical unless you're a skilled electronics engineer familiar with such work.
In practice you are left with three options:
1. Recruit a professional alarm installer who is familiar with the TVR setup and the errors TVR made when they fitted it and have them to replace the whole alarm system
2. Buy a new Meta immobiliser from Abacus Alarms who will guide you in it's installation and help you pair the new unit with your existing alarm unit
3. Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit so the immobiliser has no involvement whatsoever
Option one could cost as much as £600 but is the belt & braces and professional solution
http://www.hf-solutions.co.uk/tvr/4586285532
Option two is around £250 and is more or less plug & play but you will need to remove your dash top (not that tricky really)
http://abacuscaralarms.co.uk/alarmshop/index.php?a...
Option three may seem like a bodge but actually works perfectly, it is also more or less free to do as you're just cutting a wire or two and making some new connections.
Then there is always option four which is the ModWise Hot Start kit but as I've already explained it may not fix the problem, worse still it may temporarily mask the true underlying fault that could easily come back to haunt you one dark rainy night when you least need it.
I just present the real facts surrounding the so called "Hot Start" issue, how you choose to tackle the issue is up to you.
If you did decide to do the bypass you needn't worry about security because you're only bypassing the immoiliser on the starter solenoid circuit, the circuit that powers up the ECU and in turn the fuel pump (3 second priming pulse buzz you hear) continues to be controlled by your immobiliser.
After the bypass you will be able to crank the engine on the key even without disengaging the immobiliser, but the car still wont start because the ECU will remain dead until you hit your alarm fob and bring it alive.
Hope all this helps?
ChimpOnGas said:
Lots on this if you do a search.
Some will tell you the problem exists purely because TVR failed to fit a dedicated relay in the starter solenoid circuit, while this was certainly a school boy error by TVR there is actually more at play.
Its important to understand the problematic starter solenoid circuit passes through the Meta immobiliser system, which houses two tiny relays itself. One relay is rated for a higher amperage than the other, TVR in their wisdom chose to run the low amp ECU circuit through the higher amp relay and the far higher amp starter solenoid circuit through the lower amp relay.
The result is the little Meta relay is overloaded, over time it's contacts become pitted stressing the little relay coil further which can result in complete failure.
Nine times out of ten this wiring mistake from TVR will be the true cause of the infamous "Hot Start" problem, and actually has very little to do with the lack of dedicated starter solenoid circuit relay which should have been fitted at the factory but merely to protect and prolong the life of the contacts inside your ignition switch from excessive amps.
You can buy a so called "Hot Start" kit from a company called ModWise, it is actually nothing more than a simple relay, some cable and some basic instructions. While it is a good idea to install a relay where TVR neglected to it may not solve your problem.
The reason is that the damage to the contacts inside the low amp Meta immobiliser has almost certainly already taken place, no amount of "Hot Start" kits can reverse that damage.
Unfortunately the Meta relays are buried (& potted) inside the immobiliser so replacement isn't really practical unless you're a skilled electronics engineer familiar with such work.
In practice you are left with three options:
1. Recruit a professional alarm installer who is familiar with the TVR setup and the errors TVR made when they fitted it and have them to replace the whole alarm system
2. Buy a new Meta immobiliser from Abacus Alarms who will guide you in it's installation and help you pair the new unit with your existing alarm unit
3. Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit so the immobiliser has no involvement whatsoever
Option one could cost as much as £600 but is the belt & braces and professional solution
http://www.hf-solutions.co.uk/tvr/4586285532
Option two is around £250 and is more or less plug & play but you will need to remove your dash top (not that tricky really)
http://abacuscaralarms.co.uk/alarmshop/index.php?a...
Option three may seem like a bodge but actually works perfectly, it is also more or less free to do as you're just cutting a wire or two and making some new connections.
Then there is always option four which is the ModWise Hot Start kit but as I've already explained it may not fix the problem, worse still it may temporarily mask the true underlying fault that could easily come back to haunt you one dark rainy night when you least need it.
I just present the real facts surrounding the so called "Hot Start" issue, how you choose to tackle the issue is up to you.
If you did decide to do the bypass you needn't worry about security because you're only bypassing the immoiliser on the starter solenoid circuit, the circuit that powers up the ECU and in turn the fuel pump (3 second priming pulse buzz you hear) continues to be controlled by your immobiliser.
After the bypass you will be able to crank the engine on the key even without disengaging the immobiliser, but the car still wont start because the ECU will remain dead until you hit your alarm fob and bring it alive.
Hope all this helps?
Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail, your information is very helpful. Some will tell you the problem exists purely because TVR failed to fit a dedicated relay in the starter solenoid circuit, while this was certainly a school boy error by TVR there is actually more at play.
Its important to understand the problematic starter solenoid circuit passes through the Meta immobiliser system, which houses two tiny relays itself. One relay is rated for a higher amperage than the other, TVR in their wisdom chose to run the low amp ECU circuit through the higher amp relay and the far higher amp starter solenoid circuit through the lower amp relay.
The result is the little Meta relay is overloaded, over time it's contacts become pitted stressing the little relay coil further which can result in complete failure.
Nine times out of ten this wiring mistake from TVR will be the true cause of the infamous "Hot Start" problem, and actually has very little to do with the lack of dedicated starter solenoid circuit relay which should have been fitted at the factory but merely to protect and prolong the life of the contacts inside your ignition switch from excessive amps.
You can buy a so called "Hot Start" kit from a company called ModWise, it is actually nothing more than a simple relay, some cable and some basic instructions. While it is a good idea to install a relay where TVR neglected to it may not solve your problem.
The reason is that the damage to the contacts inside the low amp Meta immobiliser has almost certainly already taken place, no amount of "Hot Start" kits can reverse that damage.
Unfortunately the Meta relays are buried (& potted) inside the immobiliser so replacement isn't really practical unless you're a skilled electronics engineer familiar with such work.
In practice you are left with three options:
1. Recruit a professional alarm installer who is familiar with the TVR setup and the errors TVR made when they fitted it and have them to replace the whole alarm system
2. Buy a new Meta immobiliser from Abacus Alarms who will guide you in it's installation and help you pair the new unit with your existing alarm unit
3. Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit so the immobiliser has no involvement whatsoever
Option one could cost as much as £600 but is the belt & braces and professional solution
http://www.hf-solutions.co.uk/tvr/4586285532
Option two is around £250 and is more or less plug & play but you will need to remove your dash top (not that tricky really)
http://abacuscaralarms.co.uk/alarmshop/index.php?a...
Option three may seem like a bodge but actually works perfectly, it is also more or less free to do as you're just cutting a wire or two and making some new connections.
Then there is always option four which is the ModWise Hot Start kit but as I've already explained it may not fix the problem, worse still it may temporarily mask the true underlying fault that could easily come back to haunt you one dark rainy night when you least need it.
I just present the real facts surrounding the so called "Hot Start" issue, how you choose to tackle the issue is up to you.
If you did decide to do the bypass you needn't worry about security because you're only bypassing the immoiliser on the starter solenoid circuit, the circuit that powers up the ECU and in turn the fuel pump (3 second priming pulse buzz you hear) continues to be controlled by your immobiliser.
After the bypass you will be able to crank the engine on the key even without disengaging the immobiliser, but the car still wont start because the ECU will remain dead until you hit your alarm fob and bring it alive.
Hope all this helps?
I think option 3 is the best option for me as I have no problem tackling it myself. i was thinking along these lines anyway.
Do you know if there is a wiring diagram or similar that I could use to get the details?
Thanks
AV8
AV8 said:
Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail, your information is very helpful.
I think option 3 is the best option for me as I have no problem tackling it myself. i was thinking along these lines anyway.
Do you know if there is a wiring diagram or similar that I could use to get the details?
Thanks
AV8
No wiring diagram available I'm afraid, but its not that tricky.I think option 3 is the best option for me as I have no problem tackling it myself. i was thinking along these lines anyway.
Do you know if there is a wiring diagram or similar that I could use to get the details?
Thanks
AV8
Top tip.. TVR used all black cables for the security system, I thing it was in an attempt to make things more tricky for a car thief.
Saying that a multimeter makes short work of identifying these black wires, and look out for the heavier gauge black wire when your probing for the starter solenoid circuit, it could save you some time
I made up some simple immobiliser bypass instructions with photos if you think it'll help, just PM me and I'll respond with the info.
Wiring wise simply remove the solenoid wire from the starter and use it to to feed the coil of a switching relay- the other side of the coil then goes to ground. The relay switch needs a 12 volt feed on one side - you can spur off the starter 12v feed from the battery , or off the output of the alternator that has a constant feed back to the battery, and then the other side of the switch then goes to the now vacated solenoid connection. You might want to consider a fuse in the 12v feed to the relay as well.
I had the modwise kit fitted but didnt like the relay used or soldered connections to it so i removed it and fitted my own 40 amp relay that can be changed easily if needed.
I also ran a slightly better heavier gauge cable to the starter solenoid, i prefer to keep relays inside the cabin under the dash.
The instructions that come with the kit are comprehensive and easy for a knowledgeable diyer though.
Im sure someone could send them to you as all you need is a relay, cable, connectors and an inline fuse.
I have spare cable and connectors lying around in my garage if you need a couple of meters to do the job.
I also ran a slightly better heavier gauge cable to the starter solenoid, i prefer to keep relays inside the cabin under the dash.
The instructions that come with the kit are comprehensive and easy for a knowledgeable diyer though.
Im sure someone could send them to you as all you need is a relay, cable, connectors and an inline fuse.
I have spare cable and connectors lying around in my garage if you need a couple of meters to do the job.
ChimpOnGas said:
No wiring diagram available I'm afraid, but its not that tricky.
Top tip.. TVR used all black cables for the security system, I thing it was in an attempt to make things more tricky for a car thief.
Saying that a multimeter makes short work of identifying these black wires, and look out for the heavier gauge black wire when your probing for the starter solenoid circuit, it could save you some time
I made up some simple immobiliser bypass instructions with photos if you think it'll help, just PM me and I'll respond with the info.
Just to add to this most Cat 1 systems use tagged all black wires once you have carried out the install you remove the labels Top tip.. TVR used all black cables for the security system, I thing it was in an attempt to make things more tricky for a car thief.
Saying that a multimeter makes short work of identifying these black wires, and look out for the heavier gauge black wire when your probing for the starter solenoid circuit, it could save you some time
I made up some simple immobiliser bypass instructions with photos if you think it'll help, just PM me and I'll respond with the info.
inc motor cycles etc 
makes sense if you think about it I know my Cat 1 Cobra is like this also If you do get stuck out and don't have time to wait until it all cools down, ie at a petrol station pump.
A trick I learnt was to hold the ignition on the firing position, until the engine fired up.
Sometimes it took 20 seconds, sometimes 2 minutes, but ultimately it worked each time.
I took my car to RT racing and the alarm guy there explained TVR immobilised 3 circuits (fuel, immobilser and ignition) to get a Thatcham rating whereas they only really needed to do 2 circuits. So I think he just bypassed the ignition one and I have never had a starting issue since.
A trick I learnt was to hold the ignition on the firing position, until the engine fired up.
Sometimes it took 20 seconds, sometimes 2 minutes, but ultimately it worked each time.
I took my car to RT racing and the alarm guy there explained TVR immobilised 3 circuits (fuel, immobilser and ignition) to get a Thatcham rating whereas they only really needed to do 2 circuits. So I think he just bypassed the ignition one and I have never had a starting issue since.
Just had this fixed using "Option 1" above 
Dropped my car off at Taylor TVR last week and left it in the capable hands of Carl Baker who replaced the alarm and immobilizer and also replaced/upgraded all known wiring issues associated with the dreaded hot start problem. Car has been used regularly since and the issue has not re-appeared. If you want a top job done on your car to fix electrical problems drop Carl an email and find out when he is coming back to the UK to work as he makes a few visits each year
Dropped my car off at Taylor TVR last week and left it in the capable hands of Carl Baker who replaced the alarm and immobilizer and also replaced/upgraded all known wiring issues associated with the dreaded hot start problem. Car has been used regularly since and the issue has not re-appeared. If you want a top job done on your car to fix electrical problems drop Carl an email and find out when he is coming back to the UK to work as he makes a few visits each year
So, by unhappy coincidence, the same sort of problem has just happened to me after 5 years of pretty much trouble free use. Mine had new starter motor last year ( as old one was on the way out) and has Modwise hot start kit fitted. Came home yesterday after a run out and now she will not start. Battery is fine, fuel pump primes as usual when key turned but after that nothing - no clicks or anything when key turned to firing position. Doesn't matter how many times you turn the key or hold it there for 20 seconds - nothing. Just called Dom ( Powers service my car) and he says is probably starter solenoid and not immobiliser relay. Will the car bump start so I can take it to get it fixed? ( I know I can just try and find out for myself but I thought I would ask the assembled wisdom on here first before I am at the bottom of my hill with just a sodding big push back up it if it will not bump start!). I fitted hot start kit myself ( as preventative maintenance) and have fitted an alternator and a coil but that's about the limit of my mechanical efforts/knowledge so far. I don't own a multimeter and would like to know how to use one but they seem like a mysterious box of electrical withcraft to me! I mention this as the answer to many TVR things seems to involve using a multimeter - where/how can I learn to use such a tool??
DastardlyDick said:
So, by unhappy coincidence, the same sort of problem has just happened to me after 5 years of pretty much trouble free use. Mine had new starter motor last year ( as old one was on the way out) and has Modwise hot start kit fitted. Came home yesterday after a run out and now she will not start. Battery is fine, fuel pump primes as usual when key turned but after that nothing - no clicks or anything when key turned to firing position. Doesn't matter how many times you turn the key or hold it there for 20 seconds - nothing. Just called Dom ( Powers service my car) and he says is probably starter solenoid and not immobiliser relay. Will the car bump start so I can take it to get it fixed? ( I know I can just try and find out for myself but I thought I would ask the assembled wisdom on here first before I am at the bottom of my hill with just a sodding big push back up it if it will not bump start!). I fitted hot start kit myself ( as preventative maintenance) and have fitted an alternator and a coil but that's about the limit of my mechanical efforts/knowledge so far. I don't own a multimeter and would like to know how to use one but they seem like a mysterious box of electrical withcraft to me! I mention this as the answer to many TVR things seems to involve using a multimeter - where/how can I learn to use such a tool??
Get yourself a small autoranging meter like this as its easy to read and use. For testing the voltage at the starter solenoid set the meter to DCV, put the black probe to a negative point and the red to the solenoid terminal or the disconnected wire. On cranking you should see battery voltage if the circuit is healthy.If no voltage is present then you work backwards from there.
The modwise kit has a fuse, have you checked this as a lazy solenoid can pop it.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-pocket-sized-auto...
Grey Ghost said:
Just had this fixed using "Option 1" above
Dropped my car off at Taylor TVR last week and left it in the capable hands of Carl Baker who replaced the alarm and immobilizer and also replaced/upgraded all known wiring issues associated with the dreaded hot start problem. Car has been used regularly since and the issue has not re-appeared. If you want a top job done on your car to fix electrical problems drop Carl an email and find out when he is coming back to the UK to work as he makes a few visits each year
Did you look like a grey ghost when you got the bill Dropped my car off at Taylor TVR last week and left it in the capable hands of Carl Baker who replaced the alarm and immobilizer and also replaced/upgraded all known wiring issues associated with the dreaded hot start problem. Car has been used regularly since and the issue has not re-appeared. If you want a top job done on your car to fix electrical problems drop Carl an email and find out when he is coming back to the UK to work as he makes a few visits each year
I hope that fitting a relay in the starting system works but the real cause i believe is that the starter and solenoid windings are constantly getting hot through heat soak.
The starter and especially the solenoid are directly below one of the exhaust manifolds.
This heat over a period of time can reduce the efficiency of the starter, and more importantly the solenoid to operate as they should.
A reduction in efficiency will raise the resistance, and possibly lead to electrical problems with relays etc as explained by others.
This is just my opinion, but fitting extra relays, thicker cable etc, is not really fixing the root cause of the problem.
Your best bet is to remove the starter/solenoid and have them cleaned and serviced.
Another easier but more cost option is to replace the starter/solenoid with a new one.
EITHER WAY YOU MUST FIT A HEAT SHIELD DIRECTLY ABOVE IT, to deflect all the heat off the manifold, away from the starter and solenoid.
My car is coming up for 20 years old, and still on the original starter.
I did service/ clean both the starter and solenoid about 5 years ago, and fitted an insulated heat shield above it.
Maybe it's just me, but every time i have been out for a blast, immediately i switch the engine off, i always open the bonnet to let everything cool down.
Heat soak around the engine bay is not a good idea for lots of other components, never mind the starter/solenoid.
Keep the bonnet closed and the temps in the engine bay can actually increase as fibreglass is perfect insulation for heat retention.
The starter and especially the solenoid are directly below one of the exhaust manifolds.
This heat over a period of time can reduce the efficiency of the starter, and more importantly the solenoid to operate as they should.
A reduction in efficiency will raise the resistance, and possibly lead to electrical problems with relays etc as explained by others.
This is just my opinion, but fitting extra relays, thicker cable etc, is not really fixing the root cause of the problem.
Your best bet is to remove the starter/solenoid and have them cleaned and serviced.
Another easier but more cost option is to replace the starter/solenoid with a new one.
EITHER WAY YOU MUST FIT A HEAT SHIELD DIRECTLY ABOVE IT, to deflect all the heat off the manifold, away from the starter and solenoid.
My car is coming up for 20 years old, and still on the original starter.
I did service/ clean both the starter and solenoid about 5 years ago, and fitted an insulated heat shield above it.
Maybe it's just me, but every time i have been out for a blast, immediately i switch the engine off, i always open the bonnet to let everything cool down.
Heat soak around the engine bay is not a good idea for lots of other components, never mind the starter/solenoid.
Keep the bonnet closed and the temps in the engine bay can actually increase as fibreglass is perfect insulation for heat retention.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I plan to do the solenoid mod at the weekend and see how it goes. It should be easy to tell if it works as it is happening all the time when hot.
I never tried holding the switch as suggested above but it has started with a bump start any time I tried it.
I never tried holding the switch as suggested above but it has started with a bump start any time I tried it.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I plan to do the solenoid mod at the weekend and see how it goes. It should be easy to tell if it works as it is happening all the time when hot.
I never tried holding the switch as suggested above but it has started with a bump start any time I tried it.
I never tried holding the switch as suggested above but it has started with a bump start any time I tried it.
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Grey Ghost said:
Just had this fixed using "Option 1" above
Dropped my car off at Taylor TVR last week and left it in the capable hands of Carl Baker who replaced the alarm and immobilizer and also replaced/upgraded all known wiring issues associated with the dreaded hot start problem. Car has been used regularly since and the issue has not re-appeared. If you want a top job done on your car to fix electrical problems drop Carl an email and find out when he is coming back to the UK to work as he makes a few visits each year
Did you look like a grey ghost when you got the bill Dropped my car off at Taylor TVR last week and left it in the capable hands of Carl Baker who replaced the alarm and immobilizer and also replaced/upgraded all known wiring issues associated with the dreaded hot start problem. Car has been used regularly since and the issue has not re-appeared. If you want a top job done on your car to fix electrical problems drop Carl an email and find out when he is coming back to the UK to work as he makes a few visits each year
To be honest the cost was not an issue given that my problem was within the Meta system itself and down to the wrong gauge of wires being used originally, as beautifully detailed above.
Cost of owning a TVR
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