Another US Campus mass shooting.

[Oakey]

creampuff said:

VX Foxy said:

Any analogy between guns and cars or alcohol is disingenuous at very best. Retarded is probably more accurate.

And this would be because you say so, in your own opinion, not because many people use/consume cars and alcohol with no ill effects but some people misuse them and hurt themselves or others?

When someone walks into a school and murders twenty young children with a bottle of beer you might have a point

[VX Foxy]

creampuff said:

As well as having no penis and being untrustworthy due to gun use, I'm also a bit thick.
What I think you are saying is discretionary use of alcohol can't kill you because it isn't designed to kill you so the 40,000 people in the UK who die each year of alcohol related causes aren't actually dead?

Utterly bizarre chain of thought.

The Wikipedia page on US school shootings makes sobering reading. How does your car/drink analogy fit with that?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_sho...

As has been said, any nation which allows that ^ to happen and does nothing is beyond help. It's very, very. Sad. But it's ok cos the constitution says so...

[anonymous-user]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

VX Foxy said:

Any analogy between guns and cars or alcohol is disingenuous at very best. Retarded is probably more accurate.

Is that because you don't want to live without cars or alcohol but don't have an interest in guns.

How many people die in the UK as a result of either drinking alcohol or at the hands of someone else who's drunk alcohol? Yes, the majority use it sensibly and enjoy it but many don't.

We don't need alcohol. But it's part of our culture and you could never ban it.

How many people, anywhere in the world, are deliberately killed each year by alcohol or something related to alcohol, or by cars?

Deliberately killed.

[creampuff]

VX Foxy said:

The Wikipedia page on US school shootings makes sobering reading. How does your car/drink analogy fit with that?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_sho...

As has been said, any nation which allows that ^ to happen and does nothing is beyond help. It's very, very. Sad. But it's ok cos the constitution says so...

Nobody likes school shootings. Or any shootings. The UK hasn't done particularly well with stopping kids killing other kids however. I live in London. By my count reading the news, there have been 10 teenage knife deaths so far this year just in London. The population of London is only 8 million. It's a comparable death rate to US school shooting deaths. What are you doing about it? Why are you allowing disaffected youths to go around carrying knives? Why is the the number of knife crimes going up?

What are you doing to stop alcohol abuse in the United Kingdom? Alcohol helps kill 40,000 people per year in the UK. Why did the UK allow a pub serving alcohol to open at a motorway services? Some of those 40,000 dead people per year are innocent motorists or pedestrians who happen to get in the way of a drink driver.

REALIST123 said:

How many people, anywhere in the world, are deliberately killed each year by alcohol or something related to alcohol, or by cars?

Deliberately killed.

I see, so now you are concerned that it is totally not ok to deliberately shoot somebody, but quite ok to get drunk, drive your car and crash into somebody killing them, because it is not deliberate. So even though you add up all the alcohol related deaths, it is more then shooting deaths, but they are all accidents so its ok?

Edited by creampuff on Saturday 3rd October 18:03

[anonymous-user]

creampuff said:

The UK hasn't done particularly well with stopping kids killing other kids however. I live in London. By my count reading the news, there have been 10 teenage knife deaths so far this year just in London. The population of London is only 8 million. It's a comparable death rate to US school shooting deaths. What are you doing about it? Why are you allowing disaffected youths to go around carrying knives?

I think that's a little bit creative with the 'data'.

One city (which has the highest youth knife crime) therefore producing extreme data vs the whole of the US.

UK London children in general vs US specific children in schools. The apparent fact you can use extreme, generalised data vs a very specific area of crime in the US (school shootings) and place the on par doesn't really support your position.

Extrapolating youth knife crime in London to say "the UK hasn't done particularity well".

If you were to look at the overall murder data you'd see a down trend over time.

creampuff said:

Why is the the number of knife crimes going up?

They aren't.

creampuff said:

What are you doing to stop alcohol abuse in the United Kingdom? Alcohol helps kill 40,000 people per year in the UK. Why did the UK allow a pub serving alcohol to open at a motorway services? Some of those 40,000 dead people per year are innocent motorists or pedestrians who happen to get in the way of a drink driver.

Some being about 240, which are combination of individual and third parties. So not a large absolute figure, and that number has been reducing since attitudes, laws and regulation has been gradually introduced.

Unlike gun deaths where any rational introduction of such measures are, generally, completely rejected for irrational reasons.

The majority of alcohol-related deaths are the individual abusing it. It is a health problem. It isn't the individual killing someone else.

Apples and oranges.

[durbster]

creampuff said:

I see, so now you are concerned that it is totally not ok to deliberately shoot somebody, but quite ok to get drunk, drive your car and crash into somebody killing them, because it is not deliberate. So even though you add up all the alcohol related deaths, it is more then shooting deaths, but they are all accidents so its ok?

Edited by creampuff on Saturday 3rd October 18:03

The cultural comparison with the US's relationship with guns and Britain's with alcohol is probably right, but you're missing the obvious point that the problems caused by alcohol are constantly being addressed. We have strict and regularly enforced drink driving laws, and regular public awareness campaigns for example. Drivers are breathalysed if they're involved in any accident regardless of blame.

The difference is that we acknowledge the issues around alchohol and try to do something about them. The US refuses to acknowledge the issues around firearms and so is seemingly not interested in resolving them.

[Matt Harper]

el stovey said:

If criminals expect armed victims and police, they are more likely to have guns also.

So if the law abiding give up their weapons, the criminals will do too?

How about, "If I attempt a home-invasion robbery here, there's a pretty good chance I could get my head blown off, so I prefer to invade, terrorize and defile the unarmed, if you don't mind...."

[creampuff]

durbster said:

The cultural comparison with the US's relationship with guns and Britain's with alcohol is probably right, but you're missing the obvious point that the problems caused by alcohol are constantly being addressed. We have strict and regularly enforced drink driving laws, and regular public awareness campaigns for example. Drivers are breathalysed if they're involved in any accident regardless of blame.

The difference is that we acknowledge the issues around alchohol and try to do something about them. The US refuses to acknowledge the issues around firearms and so is seemingly not interested in resolving them.

Quite true. It only took a few decades to dramatically reduce the number of alcohol/drink driving fatalities. Reducing that has been a stunning success all over the world. I think there would be some very good lessons here for reducing the number of firearms related death in the United States. I think there is also scope for achieving a dramatic reduction in firearms incidents through a combination of education and requiring a little bit more thought before buying a gun, perhaps with a waiting period or some other similar measures. Not that much actually changed from a legislative perspective to achieve a big reduction in drink drive deaths.

Unfortunately it is not going to happen and you can see why. All you have is the anti-gun brigade of which there is a good cross section on this thread saying you cannot compare alcohol and guns because for some reason alcohol related deaths are the wrong kind of death. Or because every gun owner is just nuts. Or because guns are just always dangerous, no matter what. Or because guns have no place and we need to ban them etc etc. The US reaction is the same as if you turned up in a British pub in the 70s when drink driving deaths were high and told everyone alcohol needs to be banned and btw you are all crazy murderers. That reaction starts with F and ends in U.

[voyds9]

creampuff said:

What are you doing to stop alcohol abuse in the United Kingdom? Alcohol helps kill 40,000 people per year in the UK. Why did the UK allow a pub serving alcohol to open at a motorway services? Some of those 40,000 dead people per year are innocent motorists or pedestrians who happen to get in the way of a drink driver.

Doesn't look like the Americans are too good on the alcohol front either, apparently USA has highest rate of binge drinkers

http://mic.com/articles/57211/can-you-guess-where-...

[creampuff]

voyds9 said:

Doesn't look like the Americans are too good on the alcohol front either, apparently USA has highest rate of binge drinkers

http://mic.com/articles/57211/can-you-guess-where-...

Brits drink significantly more alcohol overall than Yanks. Perhaps Brits just drink it continuously throughout the year while Yanks go on a bender during Spring Break. I didn't realise this was a competition to see which place out of the world is the most unhealthy but if you want to talk benders then the Russians are well known as big drinkers, they have a harder time getting guns than the US and they have a higher homicide rate.

[anonymous-user]

creampuff said:

Unfortunately it is not going to happen and you can see why. All you have is the anti-gun brigade of which there is a good cross section on this thread saying you cannot compare alcohol and guns because for some reason alcohol related deaths are the wrong kind of death.

It's not that they are wrong, it's that they are totally different. They are health-related individual deaths, not killing other people deaths. The same can be said of smoking, obesity, too much sun or other life-style choices, they don't kill other people in great numbers and are often related to necessities such as eating and driving.

[durbster]

creampuff said:

The US reaction is the same as if you turned up in a British pub in the 70s when drink driving deaths were high and told everyone alcohol needs to be banned and btw you are all crazy murderers. That reaction starts with F and ends in U.

I'd not really considered the comparison to booze before but now that it has been brought up, it's probably the best example to follow that I can think of. We do love our booze and good luck to anyone trying to take it away from us. The comparisons with gun control in other countries like Australia can only go so far. Australia never worshipped guns like America does today.

Nevertheless, there is absolute proof that deeply held attitudes can change pretty quickly with a concerted and credible campaign led from the top. Drink driving went from being socially acceptable to being stigmatised in less than a couple of decades.

Cultural attitudes shift all the time. In my 36 years attitudes to road safety and smoking have turned round completely. Also, when I was younger Islam wasn't considered differently to any other religion but thanks to a comprehensive media campaign, it turns out it's always been a religion of violence apparently. Fancy that.

Also, I'm guessing today's vociferous gun-ownership advocates are a fairly modern phenomenenonemonon due to the success of the NRA. Cultural shifts aren't always positive, after all.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

REALIST123 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

VX Foxy said:

Any analogy between guns and cars or alcohol is disingenuous at very best. Retarded is probably more accurate.

Is that because you don't want to live without cars or alcohol but don't have an interest in guns.

How many people die in the UK as a result of either drinking alcohol or at the hands of someone else who's drunk alcohol? Yes, the majority use it sensibly and enjoy it but many don't.

We don't need alcohol. But it's part of our culture and you could never ban it.

How many people, anywhere in the world, are deliberately killed each year by alcohol or something related to alcohol, or by cars?

Deliberately killed.

Well I think 2 women a week are killed by their partners in the UK. The vast majority of those are alcohol fuelled. And that's deliberate. Then we have pissed up nightclub brawls, and city centre rucks and stabbings. So across the world, probably a few hundred thousand. Maybe a million? I don't know the exact numbers tbh. What would be your guess?

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Saturday 3rd October 20:53

[Chlamydia]

The sad fact is that in a few weeks time this will all happen again, there will be another group of dead kids and the gun apologists will pop up saying, "It's awful... but". That word, 'but', is why it will happen again.

[VX Foxy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34424385

[skyrover]

Current homicide rates per 100,000 people are:

Honduras: 90.4
Venezuela: 53.7
Belize: 44.7
El Salvador:41.2
Guatemala: 39.9
Jamaica: 39.3
Bahamas: 29.8
Mexico: 21.5
Russia: 9.2
Lithuania: 6.7
Estonia: 5.0
Latvia: 4.7
USA: 4.7
Canada: 1.6
UK: 1.0

When you consider that the Southern USA has a porous border with some of the most statistically homicidal populations on earth, while considering most murders in the USA are a direct result of gang violence, you could probably expect them to have a murder rate much closer to Canada's when you strip out the drug/gang related murders.

Mass shootings don't make a very big dent in the overall statistics as unfortunate as that sounds.

That's not to deny there is not a unique problem with disgruntled teenagers taking their frustrations out with deadly force. I see this as more of a cultural issue that needs to be identified and addressed.

Edited by skyrover on Sunday 4th October 09:32

[VX Foxy]

Matt Harper said:

So if the law abiding give up their weapons, the criminals will do too?

How about, "If I attempt a home-invasion robbery here, there's a pretty good chance I could get my head blown off, so I prefer to invade, terrorize and defile the unarmed, if you don't mind...."

Are you suggesting there are fewer robberies due to the chances of the victim having a gun? My guess is that you are very wrong. Fancy digging up some stats?

The reaction Depends on the perp' I guess, but think of it this way; every time a crime is committed the crim risks being locked up - would he prefer to be locked up for murder/armed robbery, or burglary?

[longshot]

'So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the Revolutionary War to Iraq'

Remarkable.

[rohrl]

Reading the BBC article linked above this is the graphic which jumped out at me. How do the Americans put up with this?

[AW111]

Matt Harper said:

So if the law abiding give up their weapons, the criminals will do too?

How about, "If I attempt a home-invasion robbery here, there's a pretty good chance I could get my head blown off, so I prefer to invade, terrorize and defile the unarmed, if you don't mind...."

Statistically, if you have firearms in the house there is a much higher chance of a family member being killed.