EV cars, would you, wouldn't you?
Poll: EV cars, would you, wouldn't you?
Total Members Polled: 427
Discussion
qube_TA said:
How long do the batteries last before they need replacing, they use similar technology to laptop batteries so 5 years at most I'd expect, how much to replace (a single laptop battery is >£100, a car full is going to be a lot.
How do they cope with seasons, if it's freezing and they've been sat outside will that harm the battery?
I had the same concerns about battery life, which why I'm leasing a Leaf and not bought a £60K+ Tesla outright...Yet.How do they cope with seasons, if it's freezing and they've been sat outside will that harm the battery?
But actually all the current battery data is vey encouraging.
A Taxi firm had recently got over 100K on one of their Leafs, and lost less than 8% performance.
http://evobsession.com/wizzy-the-nissan-leaf-taxi-...
From what I understand I assume discharge and recharge cycles have the biggest impact on battery life, so if I did 100K miles in my Leaf, working on the basis it does the equivalent of a whole recharge/discharge cycle every 100 miles, that's 1000 cycles by the time I've covered 100K.
As 85kWh Tesla, assuming 250 miles recharge/discharge cycle, will have only done 400 cycles. So assuming the battery cells them selves have the same life span interms of recharge/discharge, than the Tesla battery pack is going to be in much better health for the same distance covered??
Infact if the battery packs get to 300 miles real life range (100kWh packs - cannot be more than 12 months away given Tesla is already up to 90kWh), over 100K, that barley over 300 cycles....so potentially the concern about 'battery life' could well become an non-issue for most owners, unless your are keeping the car 200K+??
More data about long-term battery life in the real world is coming, and in all regards I have no fears now about buying a pre-owned, Model S with <50K on the clock in view of keeping it till it's done 150K....
Oh the heater on the my Leaf reduces range by about 5% - So virtually nothing. Norway is much colder than the UK, 1 in 3 new cars sold there are now EVs, so that should tell you enough about how good they are in colder weather.
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/07/one-in-three-n...
The technology is ready, its not just getting the cost down - and the costs are falling, very very quickly.
Tesla/GM/Nissan/Renault are all now at or better than $250/kWh, in 2007, costs were $1000/kWh.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/08/gm-li-ion-batte...
Edited by gangzoom on Saturday 10th October 10:41
I think the great thing with our leaf is the heater! you can set it to preheat while still plugged in charging (limited to 15 mins while unpugged), and if you forget you have heat coming out within about 10 seconds.
Come winter I will set it up to automatically warm the car up at about 8am on the days missus works
Come winter I will set it up to automatically warm the car up at about 8am on the days missus works
This talk of optimal times and overtaking reminded me of something. Iy was my lads 10th Birthday party on Saturday so we had the i3 with 4 if us in and I was persuaded to do a 0-60 run. Only had 25% charge on the battery, 4 up with 14.5stone me and a boot full of computer kit it managed 7.86s according to my Samsung. I'd be interested to know if other just under 8 second card can do their book figure with less than optimal conditions.
That and the M1 was closed tonight and so I had an epic run down the back lane for 30 miles. I have to say BMW.... please, release a i3 coupe with an extra motor at the front and upgraded 200hp at the back. It would be an epic destroyer of sports cars. And would cover real world driving (not a track car though).
It took me a while to get the confidence the i3 would handle properly given it's shape... but actually it's hilarious fun. What I will tell you if you think a manual clutch operated car is the epitomy of driver involvement you are wrong. With no gears your speed is set by how fast you think you want to go. Want faster.... press, want slower release and dab the brakes. I haven't got around to trying left foot braking yet.... but with not clutch it's going to be a bit easier ;-)
It makes a manual just a flipping hindrance for doing what you actully want... which it to get the speed right.
What I want to know if who is going to be the first manufacturer to make a proper sports oriented EV? The Telsa is a bit big and too expensive for the masses, the i3 a bit high, the leaf a bit slow, the Zoe a bit underpowered. Someone will do it... 250+hp and a low slung body, a range extender so the batteries don't drop off... bingo. Economy and power, not too expensive or heavy and long distance capable if you don't mind using a bit of unleaded ;-).
I could see Nissan having a go at something after they showed their prototype at Frankfurt. The 30kWh leaf battery with an extra motor, lighter body but not cross over style, could provide a car in the £30k something territory. Not unheard of for decent powered sports oriented coupes.
That and the M1 was closed tonight and so I had an epic run down the back lane for 30 miles. I have to say BMW.... please, release a i3 coupe with an extra motor at the front and upgraded 200hp at the back. It would be an epic destroyer of sports cars. And would cover real world driving (not a track car though).
It took me a while to get the confidence the i3 would handle properly given it's shape... but actually it's hilarious fun. What I will tell you if you think a manual clutch operated car is the epitomy of driver involvement you are wrong. With no gears your speed is set by how fast you think you want to go. Want faster.... press, want slower release and dab the brakes. I haven't got around to trying left foot braking yet.... but with not clutch it's going to be a bit easier ;-)
It makes a manual just a flipping hindrance for doing what you actully want... which it to get the speed right.
What I want to know if who is going to be the first manufacturer to make a proper sports oriented EV? The Telsa is a bit big and too expensive for the masses, the i3 a bit high, the leaf a bit slow, the Zoe a bit underpowered. Someone will do it... 250+hp and a low slung body, a range extender so the batteries don't drop off... bingo. Economy and power, not too expensive or heavy and long distance capable if you don't mind using a bit of unleaded ;-).
I could see Nissan having a go at something after they showed their prototype at Frankfurt. The 30kWh leaf battery with an extra motor, lighter body but not cross over style, could provide a car in the £30k something territory. Not unheard of for decent powered sports oriented coupes.
You've been able to do that on the PlayStation for years
A lot of us think that actually driving a car, rather than guiding a dodgem or pressing buttons to go and buttons to stop, is more involving and rewarding. If you cant change gear as well as controlling your speed and judging corners, you are either a terrible driver or are driving way too fast for the road.
The idea that an i3 is fun to drive on a country road would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
A lot of us think that actually driving a car, rather than guiding a dodgem or pressing buttons to go and buttons to stop, is more involving and rewarding. If you cant change gear as well as controlling your speed and judging corners, you are either a terrible driver or are driving way too fast for the road.
The idea that an i3 is fun to drive on a country road would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
gangzoom said:
A Taxi firm had recently got over 100K on one of their Leafs, and lost less than 8% performance.
http://evobsession.com/wizzy-the-nissan-leaf-taxi-...
Just a thought... How much performance will a well maintained ICE lose in 100,000 miles? (Engine carbon etc?) Anyone have statistics?http://evobsession.com/wizzy-the-nissan-leaf-taxi-...
ORD, drive a Tesla sports car. Stunningly quick and believe it or not the virtual silence actually has an appeal of it's own. Put it this way i'd take the Tesla's quiet electric whine over say an Evo's 'my hoover needs it's bag changing' racket any day.
The stealthy brute was a joy to drive, slow or fast.
I would have one if they were cheaper and had better range.
The stealthy brute was a joy to drive, slow or fast.
I would have one if they were cheaper and had better range.
CorvetteConvert said:
ORD, drive a Tesla sports car. Stunningly quick and believe it or not the virtual silence actually has an appeal of it's own. Put it this way i'd take the Tesla's quiet electric whine over say an Evo's 'my hoover needs it's bag changing' racket any day.
The stealthy brute was a joy to drive, slow or fast.
I would have one if they were cheaper and had better range.
No interest whatsoever. I have no interest in automatic 'sports cars', let alone ones that don't even have gears or an engine. It is extremely easy to make a blisteringly fast car, but faster does not mean more enjoyable (not by a long stretch). I cannot get my head around the idea that what modern sports cars need is to be even faster - they are already way too fast to be used properly on the road. What they need is interaction, feel and (that awful word) character The stealthy brute was a joy to drive, slow or fast.
I would have one if they were cheaper and had better range.
If you take away things like heel & toe gear changes, building revs, etc, what are you left with? Not steering feel, because none of the ultra fast cars have any of that. Ditto brake feel. So we are left with cornering fast, but that's not really possible unless you disregard the safety of others (i.e. always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear). I think people who like inert but fast cars either live in a different country or take bonkers risks with speed.
Like it or not, the idea of a sports car with a manual gearbox or a high-reving engine is dead or at least dying. Once you're stuck with relatively low-reving turbos and automatic gearboxes I don't really see how an ICE powered car is any more fun than an EV.
I suspect the Tesla Roadster is at least as interactive and feelsome to drive as the most commonly specced current 911. When the next full generation of "sports cars" hit with even more grip, no manual option and four-pot turbos in everything the balance will shift towards EVs being the more interesting choice for me (assuming, that is, that one can buy a decent electric sports car by then).
I suspect the Tesla Roadster is at least as interactive and feelsome to drive as the most commonly specced current 911. When the next full generation of "sports cars" hit with even more grip, no manual option and four-pot turbos in everything the balance will shift towards EVs being the more interesting choice for me (assuming, that is, that one can buy a decent electric sports car by then).
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 09:28
kambites said:
Like it or not, the idea of a sports car with a manual gearbox or a high-reving engine is dead or at least dying. Once you're stuck with relatively low-reving turbos and automatic gearboxes I don't really see how an ICE powered car is any more fun than an EV.
I suspect the Tesla Roadster is at least as interactive and feelsome to drive as the most commonly specced current 911. When the next full generation of "sports cars" hit with even more grip, no manual option and four-pot turbos in everything the balance will shift towards EVs being the more interesting choice for me (assuming, that is, that one can buy a decent electric sports car by then).
I doubt you are right about the comparison to the 991, but the 911 is certainly on that direction of travel. Maybe the 991.2 will be that bad; the 991.1 isnt great but still has a lovely engine.I suspect the Tesla Roadster is at least as interactive and feelsome to drive as the most commonly specced current 911. When the next full generation of "sports cars" hit with even more grip, no manual option and four-pot turbos in everything the balance will shift towards EVs being the more interesting choice for me (assuming, that is, that one can buy a decent electric sports car by then).
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 09:28
I would answer the question "4 pot turbo auto sports car or electric sports car?" with a resolute "Neither". I dont think either will be fit for purpose in any meaningful way unless some pretty big things change (i.e. dump EPAS, fix the fact that e-throttles are becoming unbearable, re-introduce brake feel, etc).
For what its worth, PDK also isnt really that bad. It's a world more interactive and feelsome than an old-school auto (or a transmission that does not even have gears!).
Times change and I suspect that the era when cars have mass appeal and a large enthusiast following is passing. In 50 years time people will wonder what all the fuss was about when someone from our generation talks about manual gear changes and high reving petrol engines. Technology will have moved on. I'm sure there will still be enthusiasts, just like there are still steam train enthusiasts now, but it won't be what 20 year old lads are talking about any more and it will be a small minority.
ORD said:
No interest whatsoever. I have no interest in automatic 'sports cars', let alone ones that don't even have gears or an engine. It is extremely easy to make a blisteringly fast car, but faster does not mean more enjoyable (not by a long stretch). I cannot get my head around the idea that what modern sports cars need is to be even faster - they are already way too fast to be used properly on the road. What they need is interaction, feel and (that awful word) character
If you take away things like heel & toe gear changes, building revs, etc, what are you left with? Not steering feel, because none of the ultra fast cars have any of that. Ditto brake feel. So we are left with cornering fast, but that's not really possible unless you disregard the safety of others (i.e. always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear). I think people who like inert but fast cars either live in a different country or take bonkers risks with speed.
I have great sympathy with these views. Find much greater satisfaction in driving an old Triumph TR5 or a Spridget well, hell even a Moggie Minor well than something however fast or competent it is where you have to be at lunatic pace before the vehicle gets beyond 5/10ths.If you take away things like heel & toe gear changes, building revs, etc, what are you left with? Not steering feel, because none of the ultra fast cars have any of that. Ditto brake feel. So we are left with cornering fast, but that's not really possible unless you disregard the safety of others (i.e. always being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear). I think people who like inert but fast cars either live in a different country or take bonkers risks with speed.
ORD said:
I doubt you are right about the comparison to the 991, but the 911 is certainly on that direction of travel. Maybe the 991.2 will be that bad; the 991.1 isnt great but still has a lovely engine.
.
Yes sorry, I meant the 991.2; the one that's been announced to be turbo-only. Is it not out yet then? .
I have no more interest in PDK than a slushbox or indeed a single fixed gear as in an EV. In terms of "fun" cars I can realistically only see myself going down the classic route if I ever have to replace my current car but if for some reason I ever did need to get a new one, I'm almost certain it'll be an EV.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 13th October 09:57
kambites said:
Yes sorry, I meant the 991.2; the one that's been announced to be turbo-only. Is it not out yet then?
You can order one, but I dont think they have turned up yet. I went looking to cross-shop 991s with 997s (as the 991 is slightly bigger in the back) months ago and it was already too late to buy a 991.1. The salesman said "We get that a lot" when I said "I have absolutely no interest in the next gen 991".I think the answer to making EV's more appealing might be to take inspiration from our favourite science fiction films.
The i8 is probably the car which has come closest to achieving this with it's futuristic looks and composite design but they need to go even further. The noise it makes for one is disappointing, make it sound like a Tron bike, give it a KERS push-to-pass button, make it look like something from 50 years in the future, fill it with tech, basically embrace it's EV'ness. It's not hard, EV's currently don't have sex appeal, make them sexy and people will buy them.
If Apple made an EV, it would probably fly out the door.
The i8 is probably the car which has come closest to achieving this with it's futuristic looks and composite design but they need to go even further. The noise it makes for one is disappointing, make it sound like a Tron bike, give it a KERS push-to-pass button, make it look like something from 50 years in the future, fill it with tech, basically embrace it's EV'ness. It's not hard, EV's currently don't have sex appeal, make them sexy and people will buy them.
If Apple made an EV, it would probably fly out the door.
kambites said:
The problem with trying to make cars look like they're from 50 years in the future is that a year or two later they tend to look like they were designed 50 years in the past.
Yep this is true, although I still think the i8 looks great. How it will fair in a few years time is anyone's guess though. Really anything to get away from the wedge, MPV shape that seems to be the choice the rigueur for EV designers will be fine by me, it might be practical and leave room for the batteries but it really is a horrid shape. They seriously need to introduce some kerb appeal to EV's.
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