Islamic Reformation
Discussion
Looking at a number of other threads on here it seems quite obvious that there's huge concern about Islam. Not just from skinheads and those who don't like anyone different, but from moderate people who don't want to live along side ever growing numbers of ever more radical Muslims. And it's not really hard to see why with the ongoing terror campaigns and wars at just about every border between the Islamic world and anyone else.
Of course Christianity, Judaism and most religions have had their fair share of this over the centuries. What strikes me about Islam is that it's never had a reformation. Muslim worshippers world over still learn to Quran in Arabic, giving their immans and preachers huge power. Piety still seems to be equated with a very literal interpretation of the Quran. In Islamic law apostasy is still a great sin, usually punishable by death and relatively few Muslims seem to strongly disagree with this even if they themselves wouldn't enforce it. It seems that unbelievers are still seen as somehow lacking, to be converted or pitied, rather than people who have made a different choice that they must square with their conscience as individuals.
Is it possible to have an Islamic reformation? To demystify it and make a version which is explicitly able to live alongside other religions without problems? Not just moderated to do so out of necessity.
Is there such a movement? It looks like it was attempted in Turkey under Ataturk and for various reasons failed, and that country is now reverting to more strident Islam.
It seems that if not, then it's on a massive collision course with the rest of the world one way or another.
Of course Christianity, Judaism and most religions have had their fair share of this over the centuries. What strikes me about Islam is that it's never had a reformation. Muslim worshippers world over still learn to Quran in Arabic, giving their immans and preachers huge power. Piety still seems to be equated with a very literal interpretation of the Quran. In Islamic law apostasy is still a great sin, usually punishable by death and relatively few Muslims seem to strongly disagree with this even if they themselves wouldn't enforce it. It seems that unbelievers are still seen as somehow lacking, to be converted or pitied, rather than people who have made a different choice that they must square with their conscience as individuals.
Is it possible to have an Islamic reformation? To demystify it and make a version which is explicitly able to live alongside other religions without problems? Not just moderated to do so out of necessity.
Is there such a movement? It looks like it was attempted in Turkey under Ataturk and for various reasons failed, and that country is now reverting to more strident Islam.
It seems that if not, then it's on a massive collision course with the rest of the world one way or another.
The protestant reformation gave rise to years, centuries in fact, of wars and battles between the two main divisions of western christianity. It was not a panacea. There were a number of splits before that, most notably the two catholic religions, east and west more or less, each with its own infallible pope, who rather oddly disagreed with one-another.
The original split culminated in a holy war and on one of the crusades, the main target was not the infidels but other christians. This was not mentioned for centuries and is now seen as a bit of a black mark.
Islam already has a number of divisions, sunni and shiah being the main ones, and look how well that's going.
We don't want any reformation. As with all antagonistic religions, we need its end.
The original split culminated in a holy war and on one of the crusades, the main target was not the infidels but other christians. This was not mentioned for centuries and is now seen as a bit of a black mark.
Islam already has a number of divisions, sunni and shiah being the main ones, and look how well that's going.
We don't want any reformation. As with all antagonistic religions, we need its end.
It's the anniversary of Wm Tyndale's death today. His bible was, to an extent, the magic button. It stopped the domination of the catholic sect. It, together with its successors, was the main support of the reformation. It needed the printing press of course.
Educating the masses is the way to destroy fanciful thinking. The lies and constructs of the catholic political force were exposed. Change came.
Cost the poor bugger his life. It is a shame there is no heaven for him to get his reward in.
Educating the masses is the way to destroy fanciful thinking. The lies and constructs of the catholic political force were exposed. Change came.
Cost the poor bugger his life. It is a shame there is no heaven for him to get his reward in.
Why the need for reformation or demystifying? You only think it needs these things because you haven't lookied into it or met many Muslims.
The vast majority of Muslims, like Christians or any other religion are happily getting on with it and not killing people or setting up a caliphate.
The vast majority of Muslims, like Christians or any other religion are happily getting on with it and not killing people or setting up a caliphate.
But the chances are that a "rewrite" of the prophets words would lead to certain death. So isn't EVER going to happen.
So it's all about interpretation of the original words. The interpretation of the text seems to be for political use, to rally against westernisation and capitalism today for example. As we see in our own country the perceived oppressed and poor see value in rabib extremist messages if they claim to directed at their personal struggle. eg burn the bankers, kill the tory etc etc
So it's all about interpretation of the original words. The interpretation of the text seems to be for political use, to rally against westernisation and capitalism today for example. As we see in our own country the perceived oppressed and poor see value in rabib extremist messages if they claim to directed at their personal struggle. eg burn the bankers, kill the tory etc etc
Islam had its reformation in its early days. 1000 yrs ago Islamic scholars led the world. They took the zero that the Hindus invented and improved the concept beyond recognition. The catholic church banned the use of zero in Europe for 200 yrs, as they were scared it would allow ordinary people to do maths and then they could see how much they were being ripped off on their taxes and tithes.
We still use Arabic numerals today, that were an invention of Islamic scholars, as was algebra.
Unfortunately, Wahhabi-ism came along and ruined it all, and they've been going backwards ever since. The Muslims of 1000 yrs ago would be horrified at the current state of affairs.
We still use Arabic numerals today, that were an invention of Islamic scholars, as was algebra.
Unfortunately, Wahhabi-ism came along and ruined it all, and they've been going backwards ever since. The Muslims of 1000 yrs ago would be horrified at the current state of affairs.
el stovey said:
Why the need for reformation or demystifying? You only think it needs these things because you haven't lookied into it or met many Muslims.
The vast majority of Muslims, like Christians or any other religion are happily getting on with it and not killing people or setting up a caliphate.
Bully for them! Whilst this may be true, ie the majority. The minority numbers 10s if not 100s of millions of Muslims wish to live under a flavour of Sharia (many already do) and within a Caliphate. The Caliphate being a United States of Islam, if you willThe vast majority of Muslims, like Christians or any other religion are happily getting on with it and not killing people or setting up a caliphate.
And do we think that the minority will care what the majority think, even if that majority are moderate Muslims, when it comes to the basis of Sharia or a Caliphate?
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Unfortunately, Wahhabi-ism came along and ruined it all, and they've been going backwards ever since. The Muslims of 1000 yrs ago would be horrified at the current state of affairs.
Given the ancient wonders of those ancient Arabic civilisations (sadly some of them now reduced to rubble by those mindless ISIS b
ds) I have a feeling you are absolutely correct. The current mindset of the hard-liners seems totally at odds with the empires and cities of their ancestors.Digga said:
iven the ancient wonders of those ancient Arabic civilisations (sadly some of them now reduced to rubble by those mindless ISIS bds) I have a feeling you are absolutely correct. The current mindset of the hard-liners seems totally at odds with the empires and cities of their ancestors.
Given that there are >1800 masjids in the UK in 2014, maybe they wouldn't be too disappointed with 'progress'.ds) I have a feeling you are absolutely correct. The current mindset of the hard-liners seems totally at odds with the empires and cities of their ancestors.stovey
It needs it because it is currently a scourge everywhere it is a significant force at all. Whether FGM, brutal "justice" and internal war with it's fellow Muslims, oppression of non-Muslims in Africa, insurgency in Sri Lanka or Thailand and elsewhere or terrorist attacks against the west in a seemingly endless campaign with no real end in sight.
Where does Islam peacefully co-exist with other religions? As I see it, it's generally only when they're a small minority.
Twig
That's not quite true. Both zero and algebra pre-date Islam by centuries, in ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Greece and Persia. Arab scholars did preserve and enhance it during the Golden Age, as "Christians" did during the enlightenment. I would be very surprised if that didn't indicate an age of a more moderate and tolerant Islam than the version we currently have. Islamic scholar Omar Khayyam's admirable love of wine points that way too. That doesn't stop it being twisted by genocidal maniacs or prevent it from being the greatest threat to civilisation and progress across huge swathes of the world.
Talking about "the majority" of any country, religion, race or other group is never the whole story. The majority of Germans probably never really actively wanted to wipe out the Jews or take over the world. The majority of Russians never wanted to subject the world to their weird interpretation of totalitarian communism. The majority of Muslims probably don't want to convert or subjugate the whole world to Sharia law and convert or subjugate all the infidels, but that does seem to be a central part of most current interpretations of their creed, and the ongoing jihad is a very real phenomenon bringing death and misery to millions of people.
It needs it because it is currently a scourge everywhere it is a significant force at all. Whether FGM, brutal "justice" and internal war with it's fellow Muslims, oppression of non-Muslims in Africa, insurgency in Sri Lanka or Thailand and elsewhere or terrorist attacks against the west in a seemingly endless campaign with no real end in sight.
Where does Islam peacefully co-exist with other religions? As I see it, it's generally only when they're a small minority.
Twig
That's not quite true. Both zero and algebra pre-date Islam by centuries, in ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Greece and Persia. Arab scholars did preserve and enhance it during the Golden Age, as "Christians" did during the enlightenment. I would be very surprised if that didn't indicate an age of a more moderate and tolerant Islam than the version we currently have. Islamic scholar Omar Khayyam's admirable love of wine points that way too. That doesn't stop it being twisted by genocidal maniacs or prevent it from being the greatest threat to civilisation and progress across huge swathes of the world.
Talking about "the majority" of any country, religion, race or other group is never the whole story. The majority of Germans probably never really actively wanted to wipe out the Jews or take over the world. The majority of Russians never wanted to subject the world to their weird interpretation of totalitarian communism. The majority of Muslims probably don't want to convert or subjugate the whole world to Sharia law and convert or subjugate all the infidels, but that does seem to be a central part of most current interpretations of their creed, and the ongoing jihad is a very real phenomenon bringing death and misery to millions of people.
Edited by AJS- on Tuesday 6th October 10:04
Religion will always be divisive. By its very nature it causes debate and given that there is no empirical potential, it will always result in interpretation after interpretation etc etc.... I recall reading about the Cathars in northern France in the early middle ages. 1 million people or there abouts killed for believing in an iteration of an interpretation of catholic dogma. Appaling.
Unfortunately I can't see any basis for a reformation. The Koran is the perfect word of God as revealed to Muhammed. And the things that are worrying to liberal western society such as death for apostasy, homosexuality, Judaism,Jihad, the ineqaulity of women etc are all clearly outlined. You can't interpret these things away. They are in there clear as day. So once you've made the step to say you're a Muslim, what basis could you possibly have to try and correct the perfect word of God?
Why would you expend any energy trying to "reform" islam? Surely its best to use that energy to completely remove it (and all other religions at the same time).
Is there a "button to push" to stop it instantly? No - but in the timeframe of human history it could be done almost instantly.
Tomorrow we could ban any government funding for religion, ban any religious broadcasting, ban the wearing of burkas/veils, ban faith schools, make the mutilation of boys & girls genitals illegal, ban halal/kosher meat etc etc.
People are free to believe what they want, in the comfort of their own home, natch, but if you arent happy with the above, go to another country that allows it.
Over time, the more countries that follow suit and become 100% based on science and not ancient superstition will gradually see the end of this bullst.
Is there a "button to push" to stop it instantly? No - but in the timeframe of human history it could be done almost instantly.
Tomorrow we could ban any government funding for religion, ban any religious broadcasting, ban the wearing of burkas/veils, ban faith schools, make the mutilation of boys & girls genitals illegal, ban halal/kosher meat etc etc.
People are free to believe what they want, in the comfort of their own home, natch, but if you arent happy with the above, go to another country that allows it.
Over time, the more countries that follow suit and become 100% based on science and not ancient superstition will gradually see the end of this bulls
t.wmg100 said:
Unfortunately I can't see any basis for a reformation. The Koran is the perfect word of God as revealed to Muhammed. And the things that are worrying to liberal western society such as death for apostasy, homosexuality, Judaism,Jihad, the ineqaulity of women etc are all clearly outlined. You can't interpret these things away. They are in there clear as day. So once you've made the step to say you're a Muslim, what basis could you possibly have to try and correct the perfect word of God?
Perfect word as revealed to him. But wow, he must have had a fantastic memory to recall it perfectly. Aren't the earliest recorded versions of that book from about 100 years after the chat on the mountain? Possibly someone somewhere got a word or two wrong. Toleration and acceptance must have been in there somewhere. No Bend said:
Perfect word as revealed to him. But wow, he must have had a fantastic memory to recall it perfectly. Aren't the earliest recorded versions of that book from about 100 years after the chat on the mountain? Possibly someone somewhere got a word or two wrong. Toleration and acceptance must have been in there somewhere.
Well yeah, but the book says otherwise. It's Allah's revelation to Muhhamed through the angel Gabriel. There are certain passages that are more tolerant than others. But it also tells you how to read it in that where there are any percieved inconsistencies or changes in revelation then the later ones trump the earlier ones (abrogation). And a lot of the nasty stuff comes later on.wmg
As is often pointed out, the bible can be found to cover most of these things as well depending how you read it. In medieval Europe people were burned alive for heresy including, as Derek pointed out above, William Tyndale who was instrumental in reforming Christianity. It wouldn't be easy, but it can't be beyond the realms of possibility to reform Islam in a similar way. Can it?
daddycool
Why reform it? Same reason as you would build a road round or over, or tunnel through a mountain rather than leveling it. Abolishing even one religion in one country, let alone all religions everywhere, is a massive undertaking which would probably be unsuccessful and even if achieved would likely have highly undesirable effects as other irrational beliefs filled the vacuum.
As is often pointed out, the bible can be found to cover most of these things as well depending how you read it. In medieval Europe people were burned alive for heresy including, as Derek pointed out above, William Tyndale who was instrumental in reforming Christianity. It wouldn't be easy, but it can't be beyond the realms of possibility to reform Islam in a similar way. Can it?
daddycool
Why reform it? Same reason as you would build a road round or over, or tunnel through a mountain rather than leveling it. Abolishing even one religion in one country, let alone all religions everywhere, is a massive undertaking which would probably be unsuccessful and even if achieved would likely have highly undesirable effects as other irrational beliefs filled the vacuum.
AJS- said:
daddycool
Why reform it? Same reason as you would build a road round or over, or tunnel through a mountain rather than leveling it. Abolishing even one religion in one country, let alone all religions everywhere, is a massive undertaking which would probably be unsuccessful and even if achieved would likely have highly undesirable effects as other irrational beliefs filled the vacuum.
What a strange analogy. You dont avoid levelling a mountain just because its the most difficult solution, its because it would be an awful thing to lose a mountain. Unless you are one of the indoctrinated, its hard to see how the lose of a set of irrational superstitions is a bad thing.Why reform it? Same reason as you would build a road round or over, or tunnel through a mountain rather than leveling it. Abolishing even one religion in one country, let alone all religions everywhere, is a massive undertaking which would probably be unsuccessful and even if achieved would likely have highly undesirable effects as other irrational beliefs filled the vacuum.
Yes, removing all religions is a massive undertaking. So was space exploration, but we managed that, by putting our heads together and using facts and science and knowledge (not by praying).
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff