Radiators – Alloy Vs Old School Copper
Discussion
Overall the rads are the same size but the alloy rad has 41 rows of single channels measuring 2mm x 40mm compared with the copper one which has 46 rows of triple channels each measuring 3mm x 13mm.
I can’t do all the maths but on the face of it the copper one has significantly more surface area than the ally one so, unless alloy is a significantly better conductor than copper (it isn't is it?), then it looks like the good old fashioned copper rad is better at cooling than the alloy one. Let the debate begin…..
I can’t do all the maths but on the face of it the copper one has significantly more surface area than the ally one so, unless alloy is a significantly better conductor than copper (it isn't is it?), then it looks like the good old fashioned copper rad is better at cooling than the alloy one. Let the debate begin…..
Edited by v8s4me on Monday 12th October 19:36
Copper is a significantly better conductor than alloy, but it is something like 4 times as expensive so it isnt viable as a radiator material any more, at least not in cars where costs matter.
It isnt just the conductivity of the metal though:
As I understand it the surface corrosion on copper is less of a barrier to heat loss than that on alloy.
The biggest issue however is how efficiently the cooling air is channelled through the radiator, later rads may have less surface area but if the air flow is more effective then that will be a major compensation.
Copper rads can have very small air flow channels, which are more easily blocked. Furthermore copper is softer than alloy and the fins are more easily damaged, which restricts air flow.
My gut feeling is that better understanding of thermodynamics has led to better design and more efficient radiators and that a new alloy of the same size should outperform an old copper one.
It isnt just the conductivity of the metal though:
As I understand it the surface corrosion on copper is less of a barrier to heat loss than that on alloy.
The biggest issue however is how efficiently the cooling air is channelled through the radiator, later rads may have less surface area but if the air flow is more effective then that will be a major compensation.
Copper rads can have very small air flow channels, which are more easily blocked. Furthermore copper is softer than alloy and the fins are more easily damaged, which restricts air flow.
My gut feeling is that better understanding of thermodynamics has led to better design and more efficient radiators and that a new alloy of the same size should outperform an old copper one.
Decided to have the copper one recored rather than go for ally, the cooling performance is fantastic. In light of the fact the ally ones can be a pain to get repaired I cannot see the benefit of them. In dire need, a blob of solder and a gas torch will get you home from those far off Eurotour locations.
Oldred_V8S said:
Decided to have the copper one recored rather than go for ally.....
greymrj said:
Copper is a significantly better conductor than alloy, but it is something like 4 times as expensive so it isn't viable as a radiator material any more.......
Paul - did the re-core firm use a new copper core or some other metal?Deeman said:
Air flow might be more of a GTs issue, hence the need for longer coffee stops..... :-)
How very dare you, you impertinent young feller-me-lad! I'll have you know there's nothing wrong with our GTS airflow! *
- OK, so we were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off! .....
Edited by glenrobbo on Monday 12th October 21:09
AutoAndy said:
It's Steve's overcooling that worries me..... Surely that's a worse problem than overheating which I cars don't suffer from...discuss
The over cooling is due to the bypass hose being connected to the swirl pot and hence putting warm/hot into the top of the radiator when the thermostat is shut. If you blank off the bypass inlet on the swirl pot and route the bypass hose to a new tee in the bottom hose the engine warms up quicker and the temperature stays in the middle of the gauge whatever. Modified mine several years ago, not had any temperature problems since, toasty warm in the winter.Worry not. I have a strong preference for a good margin on cooling. Head gaskets are a very expensive habit (as proven on a scimitar of mine a few years ago....)
The real TVR S V6 issue is the pipework arrangement for the so called 'bypass' as its not a bypass at all, its a 'reduced flow route' through to the rad.
The full answer would be to re-pipe with a re-routed bypass cutting out the rad - but that would also cut out the swirl pot and risk (marginally) collecting boiled-off air during 'warm up'.
My car runs at 87 dead on in all but sub 10 degree temperatures - at which it takes a little longer to warm up. Below 5 it won't get to 87 if driving along above 30mph.
That said I can sit in traffic all day long after a 'fast sustained run' in 30+degrees and it'll cycle 87-95 over and over. Never uses or loses coolant.
The solution is simple - a car sponge covered in black gaffa tape that I stick in the lower grill area of the bonnet. Look its cold today, stick the sponge in. If I end up in sustained traffic jam at 30 degree (not so likely) I can get out and remove the sponge and never ever ever get too hot.
You pays your money and takes your pick :-) One day I might alter the pipework - but not likely when a sponge will do.
I like the margin....
The real TVR S V6 issue is the pipework arrangement for the so called 'bypass' as its not a bypass at all, its a 'reduced flow route' through to the rad.
The full answer would be to re-pipe with a re-routed bypass cutting out the rad - but that would also cut out the swirl pot and risk (marginally) collecting boiled-off air during 'warm up'.
My car runs at 87 dead on in all but sub 10 degree temperatures - at which it takes a little longer to warm up. Below 5 it won't get to 87 if driving along above 30mph.
That said I can sit in traffic all day long after a 'fast sustained run' in 30+degrees and it'll cycle 87-95 over and over. Never uses or loses coolant.
The solution is simple - a car sponge covered in black gaffa tape that I stick in the lower grill area of the bonnet. Look its cold today, stick the sponge in. If I end up in sustained traffic jam at 30 degree (not so likely) I can get out and remove the sponge and never ever ever get too hot.
You pays your money and takes your pick :-) One day I might alter the pipework - but not likely when a sponge will do.
I like the margin....
Griffinr said:
The over cooling is due to the bypass hose being connected to the swirl pot and hence putting warm/hot into the top of the radiator when the thermostat is shut. If you blank off the bypass inlet on the swirl pot and route the bypass hose to a new tee in the bottom hose the engine warms up quicker and the temperature stays in the middle of the gauge whatever. Modified mine several years ago, not had any temperature problems since, toasty warm in the winter.
^^^^did this a while ago and it transformed the cooling, warms up quick, sits at 90 all day.Started off by blocking the bypass, then when I was sure blanked off the hose connections completely.
Can't see a need for Evans with temperature control this good although it can do no harm but for you wallet.
(can only comment for S2, S1 different)
Alan461 said:
^^^^did this a while ago and it transformed the cooling, warms up quick, sits at 90 all day.
Started off by blocking the bypass, then when I was sure blanked off the hose connections completely.
Can't see a need for Evans with temperature control this good although it can do no harm but for you wallet.
(can only comment for S2, S1 different)
Did you blank off the engine end as well or re-route it as I did? you still need the bypass to protect the pump when the thermostat is closed.Started off by blocking the bypass, then when I was sure blanked off the hose connections completely.
Can't see a need for Evans with temperature control this good although it can do no harm but for you wallet.
(can only comment for S2, S1 different)
Griffinr said:
The over cooling is due to the bypass hose being connected to the swirl pot and hence putting warm/hot into the top of the radiator when the thermostat is shut. If you blank off the bypass inlet on the swirl pot and route the bypass hose to a new tee in the bottom hose the engine warms up quicker and the temperature stays in the middle of the gauge whatever. Modified mine several years ago, not had any temperature problems since, toasty warm in the winter.
Hi RobAny chance of photos of the set up?? Wouldn't mind looking at this option when I finally get round to putting the car back together
Many thanks in advance
Cheers
Jaye
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