Where can i learn how to map my own car.
Discussion
I'm hoping some of the knowledgeable guys on here like Max_Torque and pumaracing can help.
I used to get my mini R53 mapped by a guy i trusted, he was trained to map cars by cosworth ( or ricardo, i can't remember) and then worked at both cosworth and ricardo, he was a brilliant mapper and produced a beautiful driveable map for my car, unfortunately he's had some health issues so now isn't in a position to easily map cars for the foreseeable future.
So i have a dilemma, the garage i use to work on my car when i can't are well regarded in the mini community for mapping but i'm not a fan of his work he is a competent mechanic but he has a leaning towards chasing peak HP over driveability, this is at odds with my opinion on maps, i'd rather lose 10 peak hp and have a larger area under the curve.
So i'm thinking i want to learn how to map, not all cars just my supercharged mini. What would be the best way to do this, as in the near future i want to change the cam, head and possibly pistons and rods so there's going to be a requirement to map it a few times, ideally i'd like to use the standard mini ecu, but if it's easier/better to use a aftermarket ecu i will do providing all the features carry over like cruise control, traction control, etc.
I will have reasonably unlimited access to a dyno throughout the process if that's of use.
So in short, i want to map my supercharged mini as the only mapper available to me doesn't produce maps i like, i'm happy to change the ECU providing it keeps all the original features. Money isn't a limit within reason, i'm not going to spend £10k to do this unless it's required and you can convince me
ETA.
I'm comfortable with engines and used to rebuilt my motocross bikes engines on an almost weekly basis, albeit they were 2-stroke competition engines, but i've also worked on 4-strokes and am comfortable with the working principle, i do know that my knowledge is greater than most peoples but equally isn't very in depth when it comes to modifying timing/fuelling etc in combination to get a result, right now if i was to do it i would change one value following basic principles and then look for the result.
Also i meant to say i work in IT as a network specialist/admin so i'm comfortable with tables of numbers and esoteric programming and their complexities so i don't feel like i would need a hand holding GUI (graphs, dials, etc) style program but if that was an option i wouldn't turn it down as i can see the benefit in it.
I used to get my mini R53 mapped by a guy i trusted, he was trained to map cars by cosworth ( or ricardo, i can't remember) and then worked at both cosworth and ricardo, he was a brilliant mapper and produced a beautiful driveable map for my car, unfortunately he's had some health issues so now isn't in a position to easily map cars for the foreseeable future.
So i have a dilemma, the garage i use to work on my car when i can't are well regarded in the mini community for mapping but i'm not a fan of his work he is a competent mechanic but he has a leaning towards chasing peak HP over driveability, this is at odds with my opinion on maps, i'd rather lose 10 peak hp and have a larger area under the curve.
So i'm thinking i want to learn how to map, not all cars just my supercharged mini. What would be the best way to do this, as in the near future i want to change the cam, head and possibly pistons and rods so there's going to be a requirement to map it a few times, ideally i'd like to use the standard mini ecu, but if it's easier/better to use a aftermarket ecu i will do providing all the features carry over like cruise control, traction control, etc.
I will have reasonably unlimited access to a dyno throughout the process if that's of use.
So in short, i want to map my supercharged mini as the only mapper available to me doesn't produce maps i like, i'm happy to change the ECU providing it keeps all the original features. Money isn't a limit within reason, i'm not going to spend £10k to do this unless it's required and you can convince me
ETA.
I'm comfortable with engines and used to rebuilt my motocross bikes engines on an almost weekly basis, albeit they were 2-stroke competition engines, but i've also worked on 4-strokes and am comfortable with the working principle, i do know that my knowledge is greater than most peoples but equally isn't very in depth when it comes to modifying timing/fuelling etc in combination to get a result, right now if i was to do it i would change one value following basic principles and then look for the result.
Also i meant to say i work in IT as a network specialist/admin so i'm comfortable with tables of numbers and esoteric programming and their complexities so i don't feel like i would need a hand holding GUI (graphs, dials, etc) style program but if that was an option i wouldn't turn it down as i can see the benefit in it.
Edited by Silent1 on Tuesday 20th October 21:11
The Spruce goose said:
join ecuedit for a start. then get reading buy some equipment and ecus and get working.
What benefit will buying an ecu do? Surely i'll need the car to see the results?I'm not interested in being able to map any car, just my mini, so whilst i can see that learning how to do it will translate to other cars (i presume) i'm primarily interested in the best way i can learn to map a 1.6l eaton supercharged 4 cylinder.
I hope this doesn't come across as anything but genuinely interested
Occasionally you do see classes pope up claiming to teach such things...no doubt a lot can be taught. IMO experience and background mechanical engine knowledge goes a hell of a lot further.
This is one such place
http://www.emacademy.co.uk/
Or another option would be if using an aftermarket system, they could maybe arrange some instruction classes.
EFI101 is another although not sure how often they hold classes.
http://efi101.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=...
As for any user interfaces etc etc...that will largely depend what is available for your specific vehicle, whether it's open source, a paid system or aftermarket. Each have pros and cons
This is one such place
http://www.emacademy.co.uk/
Or another option would be if using an aftermarket system, they could maybe arrange some instruction classes.
EFI101 is another although not sure how often they hold classes.
http://efi101.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=...
As for any user interfaces etc etc...that will largely depend what is available for your specific vehicle, whether it's open source, a paid system or aftermarket. Each have pros and cons
Dave. said:
Have you looked on minitorque lately?
There have been a few similar conversations on there the past few weeks...
No i rarely go on minitorque, I'm sure you've realised who i'm talking about. There have been a few similar conversations on there the past few weeks...
I have a great personal relationship with all 3 of them and trust them implicitly with my car, they've worked on it for the last 13 years.
When i worked in australia for a year they went above and beyond the call of duty to help my OH out when she had problems with it, once even meeting her there at 11pm at night to fix the car, as mechanics they are easily some of the best guys i've ever worked with or had work done by.
One of them even saved my life once when i was there late at night with him and i ended up requiring an ambulance, had i been alone i would have died.
They understand my problem with the mapping and so it's quite difficult as i don't want to hurt his feelings but equally i cureently have no way to map my car so it's a difficult situation, i consider them friends, i've been there since the day they started but we disagree on a fundamental way to map, i'm not saying i'm right and they're wrong but they're more drag racing focused, i'm daily driver with driveability focused and a potential loss in peak HP focused.
Long time speaky
Try giving Sam Borgman at http://www.tdi-plc.com/about-academy-of-motorsport... a call.
A top chap
Try giving Sam Borgman at http://www.tdi-plc.com/about-academy-of-motorsport... a call.
A top chap
Silent1 said:
...but he has a leaning towards chasing peak HP over driveability, this is at odds with my opinion on maps, i'd rather lose 10 peak hp and have a larger area under the curve.
There's no real reason to trade off power for driveability. If your driveability is poor, it's usually a whole lot of details left undone, rather than any intended compromise per se. The base mapping (i.e. steady state) of an engine is not that difficult and can be done quite quickly, but it's the details like transient fuelling compensation, idle control, idle transition, starting, warm-up correction etc. that all take time and experience to get right. Before you start on any of this, you need to make sure all your signals (TPS, MAP, ECT, IAT, injector slope, offset, voltage compensation etc) are all sound - don't build your calibration on top of a ropey setup.If you've got a good speed-density system running, much of base fuel and ignition is linear and can be gotten very close across the whole map very quickly with some work in MS Excel. Once you start approaching the knock limit and exhaust temperature limits, things start to take a lot more effort and care.
If you are running n-alpha, then it's all hairy dogs balls and every single point needs to be checked out and a whole lot more work needs to be done to the data to make it smooth and progressive (and safe).
All in all, a good calibration will require a lot of data regression as well as dyno time.
AER said:
Silent1 said:
...but he has a leaning towards chasing peak HP over driveability, this is at odds with my opinion on maps, i'd rather lose 10 peak hp and have a larger area under the curve.
There's no real reason to trade off power for driveability.I saw this question late last night and was too tired to go into a long explanation of anything until morning and have just been beaten to it anyway.
For every rpm and throttle position there is an ideal ignition timing and fuel duration setting and there is no way that messing with one part of the map can lead to any sort of trade off somewhere else. That's the sort of thing you have to consider when choosing a camshaft duration but it is no part of engine mapping.
The only reason engines come away from RR sessions with poor driveability is because not enough time was spent getting such things right and that's something you can discuss in advance and focus more attention on. However the primary constraint is simply time and money. OE manufacturers spend thousands of hours getting things as close to correct as possible. A few hours with Joe Bloggs on his rollers can't compete.
Depends what kind of 'mapping' you want to do. If its just playing around with the standard ecu then get a copy of win OLS and off you go. Most OEM stuff is fairly forgiving if you cock it up.
if you want to get into proper aftermarket ecu calibration, buy an aftermarket ecu and fit it to your car, there is no better way of learning to map than doing it yourself, almost all of the people i know learned on their own cars by simple trial and error. Maybe go on a training coarse to start with to learn the basics.
Its not the black art people think it is, experience is the key.
if you want to get into proper aftermarket ecu calibration, buy an aftermarket ecu and fit it to your car, there is no better way of learning to map than doing it yourself, almost all of the people i know learned on their own cars by simple trial and error. Maybe go on a training coarse to start with to learn the basics.
Its not the black art people think it is, experience is the key.
Most of the engines I build are mapped using after market ECUs and I am often asked if the mapping can be done to give good torque rather than BHP. My explanation normally goes along the lines that either the fuelling and ignition are correct or they are not, if they are correct then the engine will deliver of its best throughout the rev. range, if it is not giving of its best then fuelling or ignition are not correct, usually because insufficient effort has been made in that area of the map.
The characteristics of the engines power and torque delivery are determined by cam choice, induction and exhaust and head airflow. Correct mapping makes the best of these characteristics but does not determine them.
As mentioned earlier, the subtleties of transient fuelling, granularity of load and speed sites etc. have a profound affect on drivability and it is this that determines for the average driver how 'good' the map is.
Dave
The characteristics of the engines power and torque delivery are determined by cam choice, induction and exhaust and head airflow. Correct mapping makes the best of these characteristics but does not determine them.
As mentioned earlier, the subtleties of transient fuelling, granularity of load and speed sites etc. have a profound affect on drivability and it is this that determines for the average driver how 'good' the map is.
Dave
Pumaracing said:
+1. Well done that man. You have identified the primary misconception.
I dont think what he says is a misconception, I think it's more that many of the so called tuners are just f
king idiots who should never be allowed near a car, which then results in the car driving like st after being "tuned", then telling the customer that's just the way it is.Vixpy1 said:
Its not the black art people think it is, experience is the key.
Experience is definitely a good thing but it doesn't beat knowledge. There's a lot of error in trial and error even with a simple system so knowing a bit more than suck-squeeze-bang-blow is a very useful thing indeed! AER said:
Experience is definitely a good thing but it doesn't beat knowledge. There's a lot of error in trial and error even with a simple system so knowing a bit more than suck-squeeze-bang-blow is a very useful thing indeed!
You could argue either way..Someone fresh out of school with apparent "knowledge" but no experience....vs someone with experience and knowledge...I know which most people would choose.
It's no use knowing stuff...if you cant actually apply that knowledge.
And even worse not knowing, or being able to apply...but pretending !
Turbonutters thread was a prime example of that with the disaster AET gave him, they clearly hadnt a notion about engines or tuning, or the Haltech they supplied as they're a dealer....and some of the responses to try and justify what they did almost defied belief. But clearly they did think what the had done was right !
Edited by stevieturbo on Wednesday 21st October 16:30
I did a self teaching special when I had my DTA ecu. Laptop and quiet roads. Not ideal for setting the timing but OK for the fuelling. Just takes a lot longer than it would on a dyno session. I just kept plugging away with it until it 'felt' right on my bum dyno. When I did manage to get it to a professional, all it needed was a couple of degrees of timing pulling out here and there.
It was a good experience, chiefly because the engine I used had bugger all info on the net, so I had to figure it all out. Things like idle and part throttle manners are better done on the road anyway in my experience. I've had a pro map done before and idled perfectly on the day, but the next day it liked to stall at junctions when hot. I corrected that myself.
As far as daily drivers are concerned, a dyno is good for some things, not so good for other things. Get the load maps done professionally, then finesse the part throttle and idle yourself.
I'm not advocating anyone simply loads up a base map from the internet and hammers it down the road. Just apply common sense and adjust things in small increments. For example, don't give the lambda targeting map 50% adjustment authority. Keep it small.
It was a good experience, chiefly because the engine I used had bugger all info on the net, so I had to figure it all out. Things like idle and part throttle manners are better done on the road anyway in my experience. I've had a pro map done before and idled perfectly on the day, but the next day it liked to stall at junctions when hot. I corrected that myself.
As far as daily drivers are concerned, a dyno is good for some things, not so good for other things. Get the load maps done professionally, then finesse the part throttle and idle yourself.
I'm not advocating anyone simply loads up a base map from the internet and hammers it down the road. Just apply common sense and adjust things in small increments. For example, don't give the lambda targeting map 50% adjustment authority. Keep it small.
I could do with an EFI for Dummies type thread.
I've built a few Pintos running bike carbs and Megajolt with reasonable results, just finishing off a 2.1 refresh and will take it to a Rolling road for final setup.
The other engine is a bit more wild and I've bought a bike throttle body setup that's had injectors replaced with more suitable and ran on a similar spec Pinto however it didn't come with the ECU so I need to buy one, tempted by the Megasquirt but don't know where to start.
The last reply stating that lambda control less than 50% just showed me how little I know.
I've built a few Pintos running bike carbs and Megajolt with reasonable results, just finishing off a 2.1 refresh and will take it to a Rolling road for final setup.
The other engine is a bit more wild and I've bought a bike throttle body setup that's had injectors replaced with more suitable and ran on a similar spec Pinto however it didn't come with the ECU so I need to buy one, tempted by the Megasquirt but don't know where to start.
The last reply stating that lambda control less than 50% just showed me how little I know.
PaulKemp said:
I could do with an EFI for Dummies type thread.
I've built a few Pintos running bike carbs and Megajolt with reasonable results, just finishing off a 2.1 refresh and will take it to a Rolling road for final setup.
The other engine is a bit more wild and I've bought a bike throttle body setup that's had injectors replaced with more suitable and ran on a similar spec Pinto however it didn't come with the ECU so I need to buy one, tempted by the Megasquirt but don't know where to start.
The last reply stating that lambda control less than 50% just showed me how little I know.
Great book, sadly no longer in print hence the silly pricesI've built a few Pintos running bike carbs and Megajolt with reasonable results, just finishing off a 2.1 refresh and will take it to a Rolling road for final setup.
The other engine is a bit more wild and I've bought a bike throttle body setup that's had injectors replaced with more suitable and ran on a similar spec Pinto however it didn't come with the ECU so I need to buy one, tempted by the Megasquirt but don't know where to start.
The last reply stating that lambda control less than 50% just showed me how little I know.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/21st-Century-Performance-J...
In print, but very very basic
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Management-Optimisi...
stevieturbo said:
Great book, sadly no longer in print hence the silly prices
http://www.amazon.co.uk/21st-Century-Performance-J...
In print, but very very basic
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Management-Optimisi...
Would you run through how to set up the idle on mine if I post up some some info? Would be good to learn some easy stuff as i'm completely lost with ECUs. I just feel the cold start idle is a little high (circa 1800 rpm) and don't think the ICV should be running all the time (even when hot). Warm idle is fine. On the OE system I believe the ICV is switched off when warm because when you unplug it it makes no difference, I prefer this (less component wear).http://www.amazon.co.uk/21st-Century-Performance-J...
In print, but very very basic
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Engine-Management-Optimisi...
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