Question for the PH legal eagles - selling at distance
Discussion
My plumber went into a store to purchase some items for a bathroom that I'm renovating. He received a quote and sent it over to me.
I looked at the quote, agreed it, called the supplying company, made one slight change and paid over the phone by card.
In this instance, who is the customer and does the purchase fall under the Consumer Contracts Regulations, specifically at distance (what was Distance Selling Regulations)?
To be clear, I never set foot in their showroom and dealt with a member of their staff over the telephone.
I looked at the quote, agreed it, called the supplying company, made one slight change and paid over the phone by card.
In this instance, who is the customer and does the purchase fall under the Consumer Contracts Regulations, specifically at distance (what was Distance Selling Regulations)?
To be clear, I never set foot in their showroom and dealt with a member of their staff over the telephone.
Lots of factors will affect this
When the plumber asked for the quote, did he give his name or yours. If he gave his, it could be interpreted that you were agreeing on your plumber's behalf to a quote given to him and the contract therefore isn't with you
Also, what terms are on the quote. One of many that will have bearing is if they class their sales as being 'trade'
They can't impose terms post-contractually and 'subject to terms available upon request' or just stating now that they have terms on their website has little relevance - it is only terms on their quote that definitively have relevance
But if it wasn't a trade sale, it's difficult to get out of the right of refund unless they have terms suggesting that customised items ordered specially have no rights of refund (which I assume wasn't the case anyway)
If you paid by credit not debit card, that's potentially your most powerful weapon - you ask for a refund, don't get it, tell your card company and they pull the money from the merchant whilst looking into the matter - that would normally soon get the merchant to cooperate unless they have a strong case
When the plumber asked for the quote, did he give his name or yours. If he gave his, it could be interpreted that you were agreeing on your plumber's behalf to a quote given to him and the contract therefore isn't with you
Also, what terms are on the quote. One of many that will have bearing is if they class their sales as being 'trade'
They can't impose terms post-contractually and 'subject to terms available upon request' or just stating now that they have terms on their website has little relevance - it is only terms on their quote that definitively have relevance
But if it wasn't a trade sale, it's difficult to get out of the right of refund unless they have terms suggesting that customised items ordered specially have no rights of refund (which I assume wasn't the case anyway)
If you paid by credit not debit card, that's potentially your most powerful weapon - you ask for a refund, don't get it, tell your card company and they pull the money from the merchant whilst looking into the matter - that would normally soon get the merchant to cooperate unless they have a strong case
The plumbers name is on the quote and invoice as he deals with the store regularly.
The final order was different to the quote that was sent to me.
There is nothing about trade sales and no terms or similar on the quote (or invoice for that matter however as that's supplied at point of delivery I don't see the relevance).
Interesting one. Paid master card debit card. More interested in the actual legal principle of the matter as opposed to getting my money back (I can handle the latter!).
The final order was different to the quote that was sent to me.
There is nothing about trade sales and no terms or similar on the quote (or invoice for that matter however as that's supplied at point of delivery I don't see the relevance).
Interesting one. Paid master card debit card. More interested in the actual legal principle of the matter as opposed to getting my money back (I can handle the latter!).
jonby said:
If you paid by credit not debit card, that's potentially your most powerful weapon - you ask for a refund, don't get it, tell your card company and they pull the money from the merchant whilst looking into the matter - that would normally soon get the merchant to cooperate unless they have a strong case
In my experience a CC company won't automatically take your side and recover your money. They assess the case much as a judge would, look at the evidence and apply the same laws. And if they do credit the funds to your account, the 'defendant' can appeal.If no-one will play ball and you're stuck with unwanted items, you might be able to cut your losses on eBay.
PS Judge Rinder is starting soon - have a go on that
The Moose said:
They have refused a full refund, yes. Offered a 75% refund - I.e. Charging a 25% restocking fee
Hmmmmm. I think you should accept that.The problem is it is not a clear cut distance sale.
Yes you ordered and paid via the telephone. You may be able to argue the plumber was their courier. But the receipt is in the plumbers name. They may argue you simply paid on behalf of their customer, the plumber, and they have no contract with you.
If they dig their heals in I doubt it would be worth a county court claim over.
PurpleMoonlight said:
The Moose said:
They have refused a full refund, yes. Offered a 75% refund - I.e. Charging a 25% restocking fee
Hmmmmm. I think you should accept that.The problem is it is not a clear cut distance sale.
Yes you ordered and paid via the telephone. You may be able to argue the plumber was their courier. But the receipt is in the plumbers name. They may argue you simply paid on behalf of their customer, the plumber, and they have no contract with you.
If they dig their heals in I doubt it would be worth a county court claim over.
Regardless of whatever potential outcome is achieved, it's an interesting case as to what the actual legal position is.
Charge back on credit card - let them do the work for you.
Had an interesting experience with some branded goods where they sent something different to what was described and tried to shift the blame onto me when my client rejected it. The cc company will tell you to tell the supplying company to collect and then go from there.
Unless you bought something and just changed your mind then its your fault....
Had an interesting experience with some branded goods where they sent something different to what was described and tried to shift the blame onto me when my client rejected it. The cc company will tell you to tell the supplying company to collect and then go from there.
Unless you bought something and just changed your mind then its your fault....
Simpo Two said:
jonby said:
If you paid by credit not debit card, that's potentially your most powerful weapon - you ask for a refund, don't get it, tell your card company and they pull the money from the merchant whilst looking into the matter - that would normally soon get the merchant to cooperate unless they have a strong case
In my experience a CC company won't automatically take your side and recover your money. They assess the case much as a judge would, look at the evidence and apply the same laws. And if they do credit the funds to your account, the 'defendant' can appeal.If no-one will play ball and you're stuck with unwanted items, you might be able to cut your losses on eBay.
PS Judge Rinder is starting soon - have a go on that
Couple of thoughts ..
1. When you called the supplier, did you call to place an order or to pay for an order placed by your plumber.
2. As you called to order the parts and pay with your personal credit card, then it's worth calling the credit card company and telling them that they are trying to charge you a restocking fee on an order placed by you by phone. Let the supplier "prove" they didn't make a sale to a consumer which DSR prohibits charging a restocking fee on.
3. Has you plumber spoken to the supplier? Does he get charged a restocking fee by them should he return items which the customer doesn't like or don't fit etc? Maybe he'd get a better response from them than you.
1. When you called the supplier, did you call to place an order or to pay for an order placed by your plumber.
2. As you called to order the parts and pay with your personal credit card, then it's worth calling the credit card company and telling them that they are trying to charge you a restocking fee on an order placed by you by phone. Let the supplier "prove" they didn't make a sale to a consumer which DSR prohibits charging a restocking fee on.
3. Has you plumber spoken to the supplier? Does he get charged a restocking fee by them should he return items which the customer doesn't like or don't fit etc? Maybe he'd get a better response from them than you.
The Moose said:
My plumber and I have worked together for quite a long time and have a very good relationship and just to be clear, the supplying company then delivered the goods to me, not my plumber.
Regardless of whatever potential outcome is achieved, it's an interesting case as to what the actual legal position is.
If you are confident you can demonstrate a distance sale then you can reject within 14 days now I think, and the retailer cannot charge a restocking fee.Regardless of whatever potential outcome is achieved, it's an interesting case as to what the actual legal position is.
Perhaps point that out to them and see what they do.
sgrimshaw said:
Couple of thoughts ..
1. When you called the supplier, did you call to place an order or to pay for an order placed by your plumber.
2. As you called to order the parts and pay with your personal credit card, then it's worth calling the credit card company and telling them that they are trying to charge you a restocking fee on an order placed by you by phone. Let the supplier "prove" they didn't make a sale to a consumer which DSR prohibits charging a restocking fee on.
3. Has you plumber spoken to the supplier? Does he get charged a restocking fee by them should he return items which the customer doesn't like or don't fit etc? Maybe he'd get a better response from them than you.
1. I actually initially called to place an order for the goods, however one item was out of stock and was going to be out of stock for a while so we adjusted the order and I then paid for the goods as per the new order (basically rather than ordering something 1500mm I ordered 1400mm!).1. When you called the supplier, did you call to place an order or to pay for an order placed by your plumber.
2. As you called to order the parts and pay with your personal credit card, then it's worth calling the credit card company and telling them that they are trying to charge you a restocking fee on an order placed by you by phone. Let the supplier "prove" they didn't make a sale to a consumer which DSR prohibits charging a restocking fee on.
3. Has you plumber spoken to the supplier? Does he get charged a restocking fee by them should he return items which the customer doesn't like or don't fit etc? Maybe he'd get a better response from them than you.
2. Debit Card, not Credit Card I'm afraid.
3. He says he doesn't want to get involved (thanks mate - don't worry about the tens of thousands we spend with you each year!!!). Apparently on these he would be charged a restocking fee.
PurpleMoonlight said:
If you are confident you can demonstrate a distance sale then you can reject within 14 days now I think, and the retailer cannot charge a restocking fee.
Perhaps point that out to them and see what they do.
Their response is:Perhaps point that out to them and see what they do.
"Our supplier charges us a restocking fee and if we don't pass that on to you, we will lose money on taking these goods back".
(Mine to that is "I'm sorry, but that's the cost of doing distance business")
Simpo Two said:
Before the fight starts, how much are we talking about/is it worth the scrap?
Total order circa £1,000 so £750 returned, arguing over £250 at the moment...Guess we shouldnt be surprised if in future we phone to pay this suppler and they say, sorry you need to come in and pay.
Did the OP pay full retail value for the items or did they get a trade discount as bought through the plumber?
Is the unit a retail store or is it trade only?
I'd have thought technically the order is in the name of the plumber as that's whose name is on the invoice and therefore the OPs claim is against him.
Presumably the OP is buying the new items from the same supplier?
Did the OP pay full retail value for the items or did they get a trade discount as bought through the plumber?
Is the unit a retail store or is it trade only?
I'd have thought technically the order is in the name of the plumber as that's whose name is on the invoice and therefore the OPs claim is against him.
Presumably the OP is buying the new items from the same supplier?
The Moose said:
"Our supplier charges us a restocking fee and if we don't pass that on to you, we will lose money on taking these goods back".
That's not valid. It's like saying 'I can't pay you because my customer hasn't paid me'. Maybe they haven't but that's too bad, the contract is with you.I can't work out the legal position but for £250 it's worth sending in a lump of copy/paste DSL regs, and saying something vaguely legal, and hope it does the trick.
Chrisgr31 said:
The Moose said:
(thanks mate - don't worry about the tens of thousands we spend with you each year!!!).
If you are spending this much per year on a plumber is this actually a domestic transaction or a trade in the first place? Why do you spend so much in the first place?To address the points above, as far as I'm aware, I wasn't given any special pricing. I just had my plumber put together the list for me so that I didn't forget anything. I'm not a plumber or an expert in such things.
The supplier have a trade counter and a retail area. As far as I can tell, they are one and the same.
They don't stock what I want instead (I did already think about that) and want me to wait 2+ weeks (but not entirely sure exactly how long) to get it. Plus they still want to charge the 25% restocking fee...
Edited by The Moose on Wednesday 4th November 22:33
Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff