Sam Burgess goes back to rugby league!
Discussion
Well what a complete farce. From start to finish. He's made England look like chumps.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/sam-bu...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/sam-bu...
Dont view it as a great loss to Union, he never seemed comfortable with the plays and positioning, and in a Center (or flank) position that is crucial.
I wonder if he would have done better on the wing? "stand on the outside, follow the attack, and when someone passes you the ball just run to the line and put it down".
There are a few successful transitions but not many, and when I watched him he never looked that capable, even when commentators endlessly went on about how big and strong he is, he never made ground like his hype indicated he might.
I wonder if he would have done better on the wing? "stand on the outside, follow the attack, and when someone passes you the ball just run to the line and put it down".
There are a few successful transitions but not many, and when I watched him he never looked that capable, even when commentators endlessly went on about how big and strong he is, he never made ground like his hype indicated he might.
What a farce. Fast tracked into the squad on the back of his name rather than his ability in a different position to that which his club saw him playing in.
The RFU should really all take a long hard look at themselves in this.
Of course they won't, there'll be a mutual back slapping and group w
kathon at how well they did with it all whilst pretending the real world doesn't exist.
The RFU should really all take a long hard look at themselves in this.
Of course they won't, there'll be a mutual back slapping and group w
kathon at how well they did with it all whilst pretending the real world doesn't exist.Thunderhead said:
Dont view it as a great loss to Union, he never seemed comfortable with the plays and positioning, and in a Center (or flank) position that is crucial.
I wonder if he would have done better on the wing? "stand on the outside, follow the attack, and when someone passes you the ball just run to the line and put it down".
There are a few successful transitions but not many, and when I watched him he never looked that capable, even when commentators endlessly went on about how big and strong he is, he never made ground like his hype indicated he might.
I agree that people expected too much of him making 20 yards each time he got the ball. But as a relentless force trucking it up close to the rucks or as a first receiver, like Schalk Burger, he could definitely have played a role. Instead we're lumbered with Tom Wood, who did a very good impression of the invisible man at the World Cup.I wonder if he would have done better on the wing? "stand on the outside, follow the attack, and when someone passes you the ball just run to the line and put it down".
There are a few successful transitions but not many, and when I watched him he never looked that capable, even when commentators endlessly went on about how big and strong he is, he never made ground like his hype indicated he might.
Do the honourable thing Lancaster. Step gracefully to one side, and let Eddie Jones take your place. Then go away, manage a Premiership team and then perhaps a second tier nation. Earn your corn. Then, if it works out that way, come back in 10 years and give it another shot.
Cyder said:
What a farce. Fast tracked into the squad on the back of his name rather than his ability in a different position to that which his club saw him playing in.
The RFU should really all take a long hard look at themselves in this.
Of course they won't, there'll be a mutual back slapping and group wkathon at how well they did with it all whilst pretending the real world doesn't exist.
Halliday is right. The RFU need to have England Rugby taken out of their grasp, and left to concentrate on administering the grass roots stuff and all that. Leave the national team to people who actually know what they're doing.The RFU should really all take a long hard look at themselves in this.
Of course they won't, there'll be a mutual back slapping and group w
kathon at how well they did with it all whilst pretending the real world doesn't exist.I agree too much was expected of him too soon and that he made the switch on the promise of a world cup berth. Which reflects very poorly on selection.
Mike Ford knew his best slot was 6, however I don't think that position was ever glamorous enough to put him in from an England point of view.
Mike Ford knew his best slot was 6, however I don't think that position was ever glamorous enough to put him in from an England point of view.
Even at flank I think he would have looked very confused, just doesn't have the foundation of playing in a position for many years.
Pocock for example was playing flank against the Natal Sharks when he was 18, and he's had 9 years of professional rugby in (mostly) that position to get to where he is today.
There is a rugby instinct that comes from time spent in a position, and with that comes the ability to make the right decisions within a split second.
England rugby pushed him far too hard too soon, and from watching him play Im not sure he would ever have made the transition a massive success, so with the timescales to have him ready to be part of the England squad he was destined to fail.
Pocock for example was playing flank against the Natal Sharks when he was 18, and he's had 9 years of professional rugby in (mostly) that position to get to where he is today.
There is a rugby instinct that comes from time spent in a position, and with that comes the ability to make the right decisions within a split second.
England rugby pushed him far too hard too soon, and from watching him play Im not sure he would ever have made the transition a massive success, so with the timescales to have him ready to be part of the England squad he was destined to fail.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 5th November 16:57
Made the switch a year too late for the World Cup in my opinion. Not enough time to learn the game before it came around
However, as an RL fan I have to say that it will be great to see Slammin' Sam back doing what he does best
Rights and wrongs aside, I think that he has been made a scapegoat by the establishment/media when part of a squad that underperformed massively
Would you remain in Union where you are vilified, or return to a sport that you have loved and played all of your life in a city where you are idolised and your twin younger brothers still play!
Sam is a seriously tough bloke, as witnessed by playing 79 minutes of last years Grand Final with a fractured cheekbone. I just hope that people look back at his phenomenal success in making it in the NRL and don't just see his "failure" in Union. We should be massively proud of the number of young British players are going over to Oz and ripping it up over there (James Graham, 4 Burgess brothers, Mike Cooper, Joel Burgess, Josh Hodgson....)
Less said about Sam Tomkins the better on that one though
However, as an RL fan I have to say that it will be great to see Slammin' Sam back doing what he does best
Rights and wrongs aside, I think that he has been made a scapegoat by the establishment/media when part of a squad that underperformed massively
Would you remain in Union where you are vilified, or return to a sport that you have loved and played all of your life in a city where you are idolised and your twin younger brothers still play!
Sam is a seriously tough bloke, as witnessed by playing 79 minutes of last years Grand Final with a fractured cheekbone. I just hope that people look back at his phenomenal success in making it in the NRL and don't just see his "failure" in Union. We should be massively proud of the number of young British players are going over to Oz and ripping it up over there (James Graham, 4 Burgess brothers, Mike Cooper, Joel Burgess, Josh Hodgson....)
Less said about Sam Tomkins the better on that one though
Pugster said:
Cyder said:
The RFU should really all take a long hard look at themselves in this.
Never going to happen.
How can you have a proper review that's staffed by the very same people that introduced the current regime?!
Cyder said:
Of course they won't, there'll be a mutual back slapping and group wkathon at how well they did with it all whilst pretending the real world doesn't exist.
kathon at how well they did with it all whilst pretending the real world doesn't exist.A mockery of the whole selection process. You cannot promise some a England spot unless you have seen them play that sport, not just because they look good in League. He has had limited time playing Union, Bath think he is better at 6, but England decide they are wrong and prefer him at 12. Both positions can take years to learn, and need a certain set of skills.
You have to feel sorry for people like Eastmond and Burrell who were playing for England then get dropped just to try and fit Burgess in. Mental thought processes from England management.
You have to feel sorry for people like Eastmond and Burrell who were playing for England then get dropped just to try and fit Burgess in. Mental thought processes from England management.
Just sums up the utter fk wittery that we have in Rugby Union in this country. Contrast with New Zealand.....Sonny Bill Williams (who you may have heard of) spent his first two years in Rugby Union in Toulon where a) he was out of the glare of the NZ media and b) couldn't be picked for his country and c) learnt as much as he could from a certain J Wilkinson esq
It's not just the RFU's fault, Burgess needs to take a long hard look at himself....in his heard of hearts he knew he wasn't ready. He must have fking known as Bath played him at 6...he should have told Lancaster that.
The only person that comes out of this with any credit is Mike Ford...all along he's said Burgess was a 6. He said he wasn't ready for international rugby....apparently the main reason England didn't consider him there was that he couldn't jump at the lineout.
k wittery that we have in Rugby Union in this country. Contrast with New Zealand.....Sonny Bill Williams (who you may have heard of) spent his first two years in Rugby Union in Toulon where a) he was out of the glare of the NZ media and b) couldn't be picked for his country and c) learnt as much as he could from a certain J Wilkinson esqIt's not just the RFU's fault, Burgess needs to take a long hard look at himself....in his heard of hearts he knew he wasn't ready. He must have f
king known as Bath played him at 6...he should have told Lancaster that. The only person that comes out of this with any credit is Mike Ford...all along he's said Burgess was a 6. He said he wasn't ready for international rugby....apparently the main reason England didn't consider him there was that he couldn't jump at the lineout.
Lord Bald has his say.
Sam Burgess fiasco has made English rugby a laughing stock
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/articl...
Can't disagree with that - omnishambles.
Sam Burgess fiasco has made English rugby a laughing stock
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/articl...
Can't disagree with that - omnishambles.
OK, so England messed him about, but Bath certainly didn't from what I can see, and I don't think they deserved to be messed about by a primadonna player throwing his toys out of his pram just because he wasn't successful from the off.
He might be heading back to league, but I don't think he's taking any respect with him! If he had any sort of integrity, he would've stuck it out with Bath to find out what he could do in Union rather than slinking away with his tail between his legs. Spineless or mercenary?
He might be heading back to league, but I don't think he's taking any respect with him! If he had any sort of integrity, he would've stuck it out with Bath to find out what he could do in Union rather than slinking away with his tail between his legs. Spineless or mercenary?
Actually Will Greenwood (as usual) writes an excellent article.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/sam-bu...
My overriding feeling on hearing that Sam Burgess, after all the rumours and conjecture of the past three weeks, will definitively be quitting Bath to return to Australia? Sadness. Complete and utter sadness.
Sadness that we will never find out how far Burgess could have gone in union. In my opinion, he could have been a huge star in 2019. Now we will never know.
Sadness that it will lead to further bickering between the two codes.
My Twitter timeline at the moment is full of poisonous comments from both tribes and, frankly, it does my head in.
Sadness for Luther Burrell, who was left out of England’s World Cup squad when Burgess was included. A penny for his thoughts today.
Sadness at how this whole sorry affair has unfolded. What a waste.
It had been coming though. I heard three weeks ago that Leeds Rhinos had offered Kallum Watkins in part-exchange.
Then the rumours grew – now confirmed – that Burgess would seek to return to Sydney and the Rabbitohs. Well, I am sure Russell Crowe will be delighted, as will the rugby league fraternity. I hate to say it, but they will see this as a ‘victory’.
Let me get one thing straight, I am a cross-code man. I have absolutely no beef with league. On the contrary, I love the game. I love the players, the atmosphere, the intensity, the skills.
I always felt Sir Clive Woodward should have brought Sean Long over when he was in his pomp.
And I watched the Super League Grand Final at Old Trafford live last month rather than the England versus Uruguay ‘nothing game’ across the city.
What I hate is the tit-for-tat nonsense. Even at 35, I fervently hope Kevin Sinfield can do the business at Yorkshire Carnengie – if only so that he can help unite their fans with the Rhinos fans. So I am speaking not as an ex-centre or an ex-England player, just purely as a sports fan. And I am gutted.
For me, Burgess’s integration into union could – should – have been a big success for both codes.
The England centre came under heavy criticism for his performances during the World Cup
Instead, union fans will accuse him of quitting, of slinking off back to Sydney when he should have fronted up. Worst of all, they will accuse him of rank opportunism.
I categorically do not think that he came over for the money. That is simply not in his character. I have met Sam a number of times and have always been blown away by his mentality.
League fans, meanwhile, will say Burgess was let down and utterly wasted in the 12 months he spent in the union code. It is hard to argue with that assessment.
The club v country situation, and the problem of where best to play him, was a major issue.
I am not blaming Bath. All I know is that if Steve Hansen wants to see Beauden Barrett in the back three because that is where he thinks he has most chance of representing the All Blacks, then it happens. In New Zealand, they prioritise their national team.
We do not have that system over here and consequently we never knew, and now never will know, where Burgess was best suited to playing.
He started at 12 for Bath, could not settle there, then played his best club rugby at six, though really he played like a 12.
Personally, I do not think he had a future at six, where the line-out was always going to prove an issue. That is no slight on Burgess, it would have been an issue for Sonny Bill Williams, who has mastered about 37 sports.
Nevertheless, he showed some promising signs at Bath and I could see why England picked him for the initial World Cup training squad. Have a look at him, let him have a look at the set-up. I did not think he should have made the final cut and said so at the time. But having gone with him, I backed him 100 per cent.
And he was not a disaster. He came on and did well against Fiji. He was not at fault for the defeat by Wales. He was guilty of over-chasing Jamie Roberts in the first half, which gave Wales some momentum just before half-time. But earlier on, he had stitched up Dan Lydiate and Dan Biggar with the angles of his running in the build-up to Jonny May’s try. And let’s not forget the score was 25-18 when he came off in that match.
But already it appeared the writing was on the wall. He was dropped from the squad against Uruguay and it has been non-stop rumours ever since.
The gossip-mongers suggest he was offered a place in Bath’s matchday squad two weeks ago and turned it down. Again, purely hearsay, but I heard that Kyle Eastmond was prepared to walk if Burgess was selected at 12.
So where was he going to play? Jonathan Joseph commands his place at 13. And that is before you even come to the claims of Ollie Devoto, a seriously talented young man who could potentially have made England’s World Cup squad. Three into two does not go.
Amid all the confusion and speculation, his yellow card for Bath when he came on at six in their opening fixture against Exeter Chiefs at The Rec last month – being made to sit on the naughty step – may just have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.
It is just so sad that such a hash could have been made of such an exciting prospect. Someone so young, so strong.
In all honesty, it is a damning indictment of union. Genuinely. Embarrassment may be too strong a word but this has not been a good day for the game. One of league’s top players, with a skillset perfectly aligned to modern day union, has decided to leave before he has even had a chance to find out where his best position is.
Any chance of bringing other big league stars over has gone up the swanny.
Clearly, it does not reflect well on Stuart Lancaster, the England head coach. However much pressure he was under to select Burgess – and I am not buying for a second any suggestion that he was forced to do so – ultimately the decision to pick him, and his subsequent handling, comes down to him while with England.
But again, his hands were tied with his inability to influence Bath’s decision-making. And it must be stressed that it was Burgess who approached union. It was not Lancaster chasing the summer signing.
His treatment, though, sadly, was consistent with other issues at this World Cup, most notably the non-selection of Steffon Armitage and Nick Abendanon for the enlarged training camp, where again more questions could have been answered.
It felt muddled. We were supposed to finish this World Cup with answers rather than questions. Most of all, though, it just feels sad.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/sam-bu...
My overriding feeling on hearing that Sam Burgess, after all the rumours and conjecture of the past three weeks, will definitively be quitting Bath to return to Australia? Sadness. Complete and utter sadness.
Sadness that we will never find out how far Burgess could have gone in union. In my opinion, he could have been a huge star in 2019. Now we will never know.
Sadness that it will lead to further bickering between the two codes.
My Twitter timeline at the moment is full of poisonous comments from both tribes and, frankly, it does my head in.
Sadness for Luther Burrell, who was left out of England’s World Cup squad when Burgess was included. A penny for his thoughts today.
Sadness at how this whole sorry affair has unfolded. What a waste.
It had been coming though. I heard three weeks ago that Leeds Rhinos had offered Kallum Watkins in part-exchange.
Then the rumours grew – now confirmed – that Burgess would seek to return to Sydney and the Rabbitohs. Well, I am sure Russell Crowe will be delighted, as will the rugby league fraternity. I hate to say it, but they will see this as a ‘victory’.
Let me get one thing straight, I am a cross-code man. I have absolutely no beef with league. On the contrary, I love the game. I love the players, the atmosphere, the intensity, the skills.
I always felt Sir Clive Woodward should have brought Sean Long over when he was in his pomp.
And I watched the Super League Grand Final at Old Trafford live last month rather than the England versus Uruguay ‘nothing game’ across the city.
What I hate is the tit-for-tat nonsense. Even at 35, I fervently hope Kevin Sinfield can do the business at Yorkshire Carnengie – if only so that he can help unite their fans with the Rhinos fans. So I am speaking not as an ex-centre or an ex-England player, just purely as a sports fan. And I am gutted.
For me, Burgess’s integration into union could – should – have been a big success for both codes.
The England centre came under heavy criticism for his performances during the World Cup
Instead, union fans will accuse him of quitting, of slinking off back to Sydney when he should have fronted up. Worst of all, they will accuse him of rank opportunism.
I categorically do not think that he came over for the money. That is simply not in his character. I have met Sam a number of times and have always been blown away by his mentality.
League fans, meanwhile, will say Burgess was let down and utterly wasted in the 12 months he spent in the union code. It is hard to argue with that assessment.
The club v country situation, and the problem of where best to play him, was a major issue.
I am not blaming Bath. All I know is that if Steve Hansen wants to see Beauden Barrett in the back three because that is where he thinks he has most chance of representing the All Blacks, then it happens. In New Zealand, they prioritise their national team.
We do not have that system over here and consequently we never knew, and now never will know, where Burgess was best suited to playing.
He started at 12 for Bath, could not settle there, then played his best club rugby at six, though really he played like a 12.
Personally, I do not think he had a future at six, where the line-out was always going to prove an issue. That is no slight on Burgess, it would have been an issue for Sonny Bill Williams, who has mastered about 37 sports.
Nevertheless, he showed some promising signs at Bath and I could see why England picked him for the initial World Cup training squad. Have a look at him, let him have a look at the set-up. I did not think he should have made the final cut and said so at the time. But having gone with him, I backed him 100 per cent.
And he was not a disaster. He came on and did well against Fiji. He was not at fault for the defeat by Wales. He was guilty of over-chasing Jamie Roberts in the first half, which gave Wales some momentum just before half-time. But earlier on, he had stitched up Dan Lydiate and Dan Biggar with the angles of his running in the build-up to Jonny May’s try. And let’s not forget the score was 25-18 when he came off in that match.
But already it appeared the writing was on the wall. He was dropped from the squad against Uruguay and it has been non-stop rumours ever since.
The gossip-mongers suggest he was offered a place in Bath’s matchday squad two weeks ago and turned it down. Again, purely hearsay, but I heard that Kyle Eastmond was prepared to walk if Burgess was selected at 12.
So where was he going to play? Jonathan Joseph commands his place at 13. And that is before you even come to the claims of Ollie Devoto, a seriously talented young man who could potentially have made England’s World Cup squad. Three into two does not go.
Amid all the confusion and speculation, his yellow card for Bath when he came on at six in their opening fixture against Exeter Chiefs at The Rec last month – being made to sit on the naughty step – may just have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.
It is just so sad that such a hash could have been made of such an exciting prospect. Someone so young, so strong.
In all honesty, it is a damning indictment of union. Genuinely. Embarrassment may be too strong a word but this has not been a good day for the game. One of league’s top players, with a skillset perfectly aligned to modern day union, has decided to leave before he has even had a chance to find out where his best position is.
Any chance of bringing other big league stars over has gone up the swanny.
Clearly, it does not reflect well on Stuart Lancaster, the England head coach. However much pressure he was under to select Burgess – and I am not buying for a second any suggestion that he was forced to do so – ultimately the decision to pick him, and his subsequent handling, comes down to him while with England.
But again, his hands were tied with his inability to influence Bath’s decision-making. And it must be stressed that it was Burgess who approached union. It was not Lancaster chasing the summer signing.
His treatment, though, sadly, was consistent with other issues at this World Cup, most notably the non-selection of Steffon Armitage and Nick Abendanon for the enlarged training camp, where again more questions could have been answered.
It felt muddled. We were supposed to finish this World Cup with answers rather than questions. Most of all, though, it just feels sad.
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