Are there any actual positions in Rugby League?

Are there any actual positions in Rugby League?

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Discussion

Kermit power

Original Poster:

28,634 posts

212 months

Friday 6th November 2015
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With all the furore over what position Burgess should've played in Union, and a comment I saw somewhere about "Eastmond was a half back in League, Burgess a forward, how could they ever have been expected to play the same position in League", it got me wondering what the differences actually are between League positions?

I'll watch it if I happen to turn it on, and it's streets ahead of football as a spectacle to watch, but to my uninitiated eyes, it's very much a case of...

1. Get ball.
2. Run ball into contact.
3. Recycle ball.
4. Repeat five times.
5. Kick the ball.

Obviously that's over-simplifying somewhat, and I can certainly see the need for a full back of sorts to field the kicks off the sixth tackle, but beyond that, whilst I've got a lot of respect for the athletic prowess and the skills of the players involved in every position, I'm really struggling to understand how one position is any different to another???

I found a page about understanding the positions on the RFL Website, but the vast majority of the differences that highlights are about the forwards battling to win the ball in the scrum!?!?!??

In every Superleague game I've seen, the scrums have been unopposed, and I've never, ever seen one go against the head, so what possible difference can the players make in League scrums? confused

Assuming that the scrums in modern day league are just a way of giving possession to one side whilst drawing six players from each team into one place on the field, thus creating more space for open running play in the rest of the field - no bad thing from a spectator's perspective - then how do the forwards and backs need any differing skills sets, beyond maybe the wingers having an extra turn of speed?

Smollet

10,465 posts

189 months

Friday 6th November 2015
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League players generally are all of the same size and build whereas in Union the size and shape differentials are quite considerable so on that basis Union would be the only form of rugby where anybody of any different dimensions have a chance of playing. Never understood why they have scrums in league as it's only a way of restarting play and nothing else. Might as just tap and go.

Pieman68

4,264 posts

233 months

Friday 6th November 2015
quotequote all
I suppose you could say that the skillset is narrower than in Union, but there are definite differences in the positions. Having transitioned from a second row in my younger days into a prop now, you work in a narrower channel from an attacking POV at prop and generally tend to be closer into the ruck in defence. Second rows can be slightly more transitional in that a lot of them can interchange into the centre as well

Agree with you on the scrums though, they are simply a way to restart the game and the aim is just to do it as quickly as possible

Kermit power

Original Poster:

28,634 posts

212 months

Friday 6th November 2015
quotequote all
Pieman68 said:
I suppose you could say that the skillset is narrower than in Union, but there are definite differences in the positions. Having transitioned from a second row in my younger days into a prop now, you work in a narrower channel from an attacking POV at prop and generally tend to be closer into the ruck in defence. Second rows can be slightly more transitional in that a lot of them can interchange into the centre as well

Agree with you on the scrums though, they are simply a way to restart the game and the aim is just to do it as quickly as possible
I can see a benefit to a scrum causing more open play during the time the forwards take to get back into positon, but apart from that, why not indeed just have a tap and go?

Pieman68

4,264 posts

233 months

Friday 6th November 2015
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
I can see a benefit to a scrum causing more open play during the time the forwards take to get back into positon, but apart from that, why not indeed just have a tap and go?
Totally agree. I come from an RL family - Granddad, Uncle and Cousin all played professionally and I have watched the scrums morph into what they are today over the years. If you stood on the terraces watching the game and spent time on the banter pages you would come across a massive number of people bemoaning the state of the set piece in the game - on the other side of the coin watch some union and see how many straight feeds you see now and how many hookers striking (the ball goes in off centre and the teams just walk over it in all the games I watch)

I love RL, have watched and played it for years but it does have it's issues. It's not helped by some of the mouthbreathers that follow from the slightly less salubrious areas of Yorkshire and Lancashire - you can see the influence of football creeping into the game at all levels and it drives me insane

I also play union, and enjoy both codes. They are, however, totally different sports that have morphed since the split 120 years ago.

Rugby union - more stamina required in moving from ruck to ruck and maul to maul, but also more periods of rest due to set pieces. In the main the impacts are lesser due to the back foot defence and running from the base of the ruck. Much more technical and involved game due to the set piece

Rugby League - A different type of fitness due to the getting up and back in a line in defence. Bigger hits due to collision of both players running into the tackle from distance. Faster, more time with ball in play and (IMO) a better spectacle to watch

I played in a cross code game last week where the Old Mods 1st XV played Leeds Akkies 1st XIII. 40 mins of union with uncontested scrums followed by 40 mins of League

21-15 to the union guys in first half as we missed our kicks
0-34 to us in the second half. They were blowing out of their arses after 10 minutes biggrin Few comments made about how hard the hits were and having to run backwards all of the time in defence

Joey Ramone

2,150 posts

124 months

Friday 6th November 2015
quotequote all
Pieman68 said:
Totally agree. I come from an RL family - Granddad, Uncle and Cousin all played professionally and I have watched the scrums morph into what they are today over the years. If you stood on the terraces watching the game and spent time on the banter pages you would come across a massive number of people bemoaning the state of the set piece in the game - on the other side of the coin watch some union and see how many straight feeds you see now and how many hookers striking (the ball goes in off centre and the teams just walk over it in all the games I watch)

I love RL, have watched and played it for years but it does have it's issues. It's not helped by some of the mouthbreathers that follow from the slightly less salubrious areas of Yorkshire and Lancashire - you can see the influence of football creeping into the game at all levels and it drives me insane

I also play union, and enjoy both codes. They are, however, totally different sports that have morphed since the split 120 years ago.

Rugby union - more stamina required in moving from ruck to ruck and maul to maul, but also more periods of rest due to set pieces. In the main the impacts are lesser due to the back foot defence and running from the base of the ruck. Much more technical and involved game due to the set piece

Rugby League - A different type of fitness due to the getting up and back in a line in defence. Bigger hits due to collision of both players running into the tackle from distance. Faster, more time with ball in play and (IMO) a better spectacle to watch

I played in a cross code game last week where the Old Mods 1st XV played Leeds Akkies 1st XIII. 40 mins of union with uncontested scrums followed by 40 mins of League

21-15 to the union guys in first half as we missed our kicks
0-34 to us in the second half. They were blowing out of their arses after 10 minutes biggrin Few comments made about how hard the hits were and having to run backwards all of the time in defence
Unless scrums are contested, it's kind of pointless. If scrums were contested, the league team would never get the ball and three men would be in hospital with broken necks. That's why Union props look like that - it's not simply so the ladies come running,

When I played prop, scrummaging was often the hardest part of the game for me, aerobically. It was staggeringly unpleasant at times, like being asked to do successive 1RM squats followed by a sprint. As for the tackle, granted, but then in Union the hardest physical aspect of the game has always been the maul and the breakdown. That's where the studs, elbows and fists come into play.

The problem that Burgess found was that in League he could hit up into the opposition with max effect because he could time his run off the half back and had 10 metres to play with. You just don't get that time or space in Union and he wasn't able to use his physicality to the same extent - the only way he could have done that would have been to play inside centre for about 5 years to get his timing and positional play spot on but even then it wouldn't have been guaranteed.

I love League, by the way, and will be watching the England game with interest tomorrow.

JB!

5,254 posts

179 months

Wednesday 11th November 2015
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There is no rest for a Union forward!

Scrum, ruck, ruck, ruck, scrum, ruck, lineout, maul...

RWD cossie wil

4,295 posts

172 months

Sunday 15th November 2015
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JB! said:
There is no rest for a Union forward!

Scrum, ruck, ruck, ruck, scrum, ruck, lineout, maul...
I couldn't belive the difference between playing winger/centre & second row! I thought the backs worked hard, the pack is a totally different ball game, 80 mins of that on a Saturday & you are ready for bed at 8pm!!

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Sunday 22nd November 2015
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I don't watch rugby, so I never knew it had changed, but back when I played, we pushed hard in the scrum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_%28rugby%29#Ru...

JB!

5,254 posts

179 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
quotequote all
RWD cossie wil said:
JB! said:
There is no rest for a Union forward!

Scrum, ruck, ruck, ruck, scrum, ruck, lineout, maul...
I couldn't belive the difference between playing winger/centre & second row! I thought the backs worked hard, the pack is a totally different ball game, 80 mins of that on a Saturday & you are ready for bed at 8pm!!
Pint after, home, long hot bath and I'm done.

Pieman68

4,264 posts

233 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
quotequote all
I also think it's difficult, without having played the game, to realise the physicality of the game on the floor in RL. Although very different to the ruck in Union, the ruck is very prevalent in RL as well. Often referred to as the wrestle, a lot of work is done on the "surrender/dominant" tackle. If you can wrestle the attacker onto their back you have the advantage of being in control of the tackle and can slow down the ruck, thus giving more time for the defensive line to set. Alternatively the attacker wishes to be dominant and go down on his front or be held up, thus allowing a quick play the ball and options to open up due to the lack of time for the defensive set up

Different games that both have things to teach each other gents biggrin

Kermit power

Original Poster:

28,634 posts

212 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
quotequote all
Pieman68 said:
I also think it's difficult, without having played the game, to realise the physicality of the game on the floor in RL. Although very different to the ruck in Union, the ruck is very prevalent in RL as well. Often referred to as the wrestle, a lot of work is done on the "surrender/dominant" tackle. If you can wrestle the attacker onto their back you have the advantage of being in control of the tackle and can slow down the ruck, thus giving more time for the defensive line to set. Alternatively the attacker wishes to be dominant and go down on his front or be held up, thus allowing a quick play the ball and options to open up due to the lack of time for the defensive set up

Different games that both have things to teach each other gents biggrin
I know what you mean, but as I was reading it, I found the accent in my head changing of its own accord....



Just try reading "Alternatively the attacker wishes to be dominant and go down on his front or be held up, thus allowing a quick play the ball and options to open up" out of context! rofl


Pieman68

4,264 posts

233 months

Monday 23rd November 2015
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
I know what you mean, but as I was reading it, I found the accent in my head changing of its own accord....



Just try reading "Alternatively the attacker wishes to be dominant and go down on his front or be held up, thus allowing a quick play the ball and options to open up" out of context! rofl
I just want to know where you got a picture of me in my kit tbh wink

DannyScene

6,596 posts

154 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
Pieman68 said:
Kermit power said:
I can see a benefit to a scrum causing more open play during the time the forwards take to get back into positon, but apart from that, why not indeed just have a tap and go?
Totally agree. I come from an RL family - Granddad, Uncle and Cousin all played professionally and I have watched the scrums morph into what they are today over the years. If you stood on the terraces watching the game and spent time on the banter pages you would come across a massive number of people bemoaning the state of the set piece in the game - on the other side of the coin watch some union and see how many straight feeds you see now and how many hookers striking (the ball goes in off centre and the teams just walk over it in all the games I watch)

I love RL, have watched and played it for years but it does have it's issues. It's not helped by some of the mouthbreathers that follow from the slightly less salubrious areas of Yorkshire and Lancashire - you can see the influence of football creeping into the game at all levels and it drives me insane

I also play union, and enjoy both codes. They are, however, totally different sports that have morphed since the split 120 years ago.

Rugby union - more stamina required in moving from ruck to ruck and maul to maul, but also more periods of rest due to set pieces. In the main the impacts are lesser due to the back foot defence and running from the base of the ruck. Much more technical and involved game due to the set piece

Rugby League - A different type of fitness due to the getting up and back in a line in defence. Bigger hits due to collision of both players running into the tackle from distance. Faster, more time with ball in play and (IMO) a better spectacle to watch

I played in a cross code game last week where the Old Mods 1st XV played Leeds Akkies 1st XIII. 40 mins of union with uncontested scrums followed by 40 mins of League

21-15 to the union guys in first half as we missed our kicks
0-34 to us in the second half. They were blowing out of their arses after 10 minutes biggrin Few comments made about how hard the hits were and having to run backwards all of the time in defence
I used to play for the old mods at junior level and later moved to Yarnbury as the junior rugby at the mods folded, sadly a torn Achilles put a stop to me playing around 6 years ago, still go for the odd drink in the mods with my old man

Pieman68

4,264 posts

233 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
quotequote all
DannyScene said:
I used to play for the old mods at junior level and later moved to Yarnbury as the junior rugby at the mods folded, sadly a torn Achilles put a stop to me playing around 6 years ago, still go for the odd drink in the mods with my old man
Excellent. I play for Leeds Akkies RL out of Old Mods, and then play for the 3rds/Vets at West Park

Had my 40th at Yarnbury earlier in the year

Small world wink

DannyScene

6,596 posts

154 months

Tuesday 24th November 2015
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It certainly is, there are a fair few of us around the mods/Yarnbury kind of area

XCP

16,876 posts

227 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
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Is it a rule that RL scrums are uncontested or is it just a 'gentlemans agreement' ?

Pieman68

4,264 posts

233 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
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XCP said:
Is it a rule that RL scrums are uncontested or is it just a 'gentlemans agreement' ?
As the ball tends to go straight through the props legs into the back row for the loose forward to pick up I think it's more of a "not worth trying" mentality, but there is nothing to say that you can't. In fact, I have actually seen a couple won against the head this season - I think the odd team give a push every now and again and catch the other off guard.

XCP

16,876 posts

227 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
quotequote all
Pieman68 said:
As the ball tends to go straight through the props legs into the back row for the loose forward to pick up I think it's more of a "not worth trying" mentality, but there is nothing to say that you can't. In fact, I have actually seen a couple won against the head this season - I think the odd team give a push every now and again and catch the other off guard.
Could the loose forward keep it at his feet and go for a drive? If you catch the other team off guard you could go a long way forward I'd have thought.

Mark13

403 posts

177 months

Thursday 26th November 2015
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All the talk about fitness levels is interesting.

The key fact for me is that the ball is in play on average for only c36 minutes in a Union game and 60 minutes in a League game. The set piece just eats time, Re-set scrums, hooker moaning about encroachment at the line out etc. last season when Eastmond had a meltdown at half time early season, it was because he hadn't touched the ball for the whole 40 minutes.