Any Laser Dinghy Experts out there?

[Marcellus]

I need some help!!

I'm a "not too shabby" Laser sailor, sail most weekends throughout the year and have just finished 3rd in this Summer Championships by 2.3points.

Looking at my performance where I struggle is upwind when the wind is +20kts.

During the summer season (30weeks) I can lose these as discards but during the Winter when there's less races (22) and more frequency of 20+kts races I need to address the issue.

I've tried;
- Masses of Cunningham - getting the crinked eye on the boom if need be!
- Flatten the sail - with more Kicker and outhaul!
- just being more physical - (hike harder and then some more) and yes it's had shown some benefit but teh others who I'm up against aren't as fit/strong as me and don't seem to suffer as much, so there must be more than pure power!!

I need to assume;
- My weight will be constant (82kgs)
- My height will be contact (5'8")
- My fitness is quite good

So, does anyone have a couple of tips that I can try to improve my upwind strong wind technique?

[sawman]

sounds like you are doing all the right things, but you may do better with a radial when its windy, probably not on weight , but at 5'8" you may not be able to get your weight far enough outboard when its windy.

You might find sailing a radial moderately powered up would be ultimately quicker (esp on handicap)

technique wise, anticipating the gusts and sheeting out a good armful at a time to keep the boat driving and flat, and not pinching too much to avoid stalling and side slip (which I am sure you are doing, anyhow)

As a disclaimer, I havent sat on a laser for a few years, but my brother chucks the radial on when ever its in the 18knot and above zone and does a horizon job on the full rigs

Edited by sawman on Saturday 7th November 18:54

[Marcellus]

I have been dropping to a Radial and doing rather well with it and yes a well sailed Radial will beat a badly sailed Full.

Hiwever, we're Fleet Racing so if i do use a Radial it doesn't count toward the championships.

[sawman]

thats tough

have you checked out the boatwhisperer dvds?

[Hard-Drive]

Either get down the pie shop, or get a proper boat that has bits of wire to stop the mast flopping around when it's windy.

HTH.

Edited by Hard-Drive on Sunday 8th November 09:03

[Ayahuasca]

In what way does your upwind performance suffer in strong winds? Boat speed? Tactics?

Are you constantly overpowered, or are you sailing too easy and being driven over?


If you have trouble keeping the boat flat after you have put on loads of Cunningham and kicker, and tightened the traveller , you could anticipate gusts, ease the main, then hike out and trim whilst heading up slightly, then trim like mad and bear away slightly when the gust eases. The best advice I read on Lasers was 'keep the goddam boat flat'. And 'Ease -Hike-Trim'.

Lifting the centreboard a couple of inches can help keep the boat flat in gusts, at the expense of more leeway.

Is your sail too old / baggy? All the adjustments in the world won't help if your sail is bellied.

Are you heavy enough ? Iirc Ben Ainslie bulked up to something like 15 stone when he sailed Lasers.

Hiking shorts help you hike longer without getting tired.

Are your legs and back straight when hiking?

Lastly, whilst a Radial sail might not be allowed, you could always reef by wrapping the sail around the mast.

[IforB]

Your height and weight are OK for lasers. Ben Ainslie was a racing snake when he sailed them and only bulked up when he moved onto fins.

I'm mates with Paul Goodison (Olympic gold in Lasers at Beijing) and he's not a big guy. 5 9 and as fit as anything. When talking to him about racing a laser, his simple rule was hike and hike some more. You simply can't be too fit to sail a laser. It's simply horrendous on your stomach muscles and thighs!

If you are happy with your sail shape and how stiff the boat is, then it's more likely simply to be down to your body position. Get a set of hikers and work even harder on your fitness.

Are you having trouble pointing or is it speed you're missing up wind?

[RumRunner]

If the sail is old..ish they are difficult to flatten off and can end up baggy because the mast is free standing and gives you little drive uphill and pointing...but lots of healing, new sails make a huge difference on Lasers as they are shall we say are built not to last. Make sure the you can nearly block to block it on the main. Try pointing high/feathering to spill rather dumping not always the fastest but gives you a bit of height and less pain / in out on the stomach muscles. Also the you are using less rudder and less drag by naturally using the weather helm to de-power. I am no expert though as it has been a long time since my Laser days !.

Edited by RumRunner on Sunday 8th November 15:22

[Marcellus]

Hard-Drive said:

Either get down the pie shop, or get a proper boat that has bits of wire to stop the mast flopping around when it's windy.

HTH.

Edited by Hard-Drive on Sunday 8th November 09:03

Ever helpful Ian..... and you know what after today there's something to be said for that, however there's only one Fleet with wires that's worth sailing with at the club and after "a little incident" during the Summer which you heard iirc I think I'm persona non garcia there!!

Thanks for everyone elses comments, in genreal response;

Tactics are always my downfall but at least they're constantly crap!!

Up wind it's boat speed, and yes constantly over powered, I look around and will be doing quite well in boat speed terms and then a gust will hit, the boat will heal and then I just can't get the bugger flat, all speed gone and back to get the boat going again!!

I think that although I'm slightly lighter and shorter than Messrs Ainslee & Goddison when they were at their Laser prime I think they're both a good bit younger (less than half my age!!) and fitter than I am!!

Legs and back straight hiker shorts in and locked!!

From what everyone has said it seems as though I'm reacting to the wind/gusts as opposed to anticipating them, I think that's what I'll try and focus on!!

Still had a cracking couple races today;
In the 1st race nailed the line with a port flyer, was nicely clear of everyone, went for a tack and missed toe straps with both feet, cue a backwards roll in to the water and much piss taking from the rest of the start (1st race is a warm up handicap race so all a bit of fun really)

In the main race; gusty winds, 11 lasers on the start line, upset a few by asking for room for an obstruction (committee boat), 1st placed boat did his usual disappearing act, 2nd and 3rd got a great lift and broke the wind cycle and sailed away then 4th, 5th & 6th were 3 abreast going into the last mark after 72 minutes of swapping places, one went low, one went high and the other went through the middle... going high was not the right choice so I ended up 6th!

[Ayahuasca]

Marcellus said:

a gust will hit, the boat will heal and then I just can't get the bugger flat, all speed gone and back to get the boat going again!!

KEEP THE GODDAM BOAT FLAT!

EASE - HIKE - TRIM.

If it has heeled, it is too late. You spend your energy on a fruitless effort to get the boat flat, you put on masses of rudder to counter the weather helm, you lose rudder authority and by the time you manage to get things under control you are dead in the water.

When a gust hits, don't fight it but instantly ease the main and hike out. Keep the boat flat. As the gust eases pull the main back in. Even if you let off too much main and lose some power it is better than being overpowered.

[IforB]

I've massaged Mr Goodison to see if he has any particular tips, but I can't imagine they'll be much more than already said.

Spot the gust coming, ease and keep the thing flat. Oh and hike!

[chrisga]

[quote]11 lasers on the start line, upset a few by asking for room for an obstruction (committee boat)...

[/quote]

You didn't ask for room for an obstruction on the start line I hope?

As others have said keeping the boat flat is the key. In the 300 we actually try to heel to windward a bit. Boat whisperer also recommends this for the laser I think, but I struggled with lower freeboard when I sailed a laser. A bit of positive windward heel supposedly does a couple of things. It allows you a split second longer to sheet out when a gust hits as you will then be upright, not heeled to leeward if a it slow. It also supposedly means that the boat is wanting to bear off the wind due to hull shape and to counter this you are steering up into the wind and for some reason I haven't quite figured this appears to gain you height to windward.

Do you have any video of you going upwind when you're overpowered? Can you see if your boat is as flat as anyone else's in front of you? Won't be such an issue in that much wind but the laser rudder is crap and so you will lose speed the more you use it. Are you just using it to steer or do you heel the boat as well?

[Marcellus]

chrisga said:

You didn't ask for room for an obstruction on the start line I hope?

As others have said keeping the boat flat is the key. In the 300 we actually try to heel to windward a bit. Boat whisperer also recommends this for the laser I think, but I struggled with lower freeboard when I sailed a laser. A bit of positive windward heel supposedly does a couple of things. It allows you a split second longer to sheet out when a gust hits as you will then be upright, not heeled to leeward if a it slow. It also supposedly means that the boat is wanting to bear off the wind due to hull shape and to counter this you are steering up into the wind and for some reason I haven't quite figured this appears to gain you height to windward.

Do you have any video of you going upwind when you're overpowered? Can you see if your boat is as flat as anyone else's in front of you? Won't be such an issue in that much wind but the laser rudder is crap and so you will lose speed the more you use it. Are you just using it to steer or do you heel the boat as well?

Ok didn't ask for room per se, but when someonetried to call windward on me i pointed out the obstruction.

There's some footage of me in the 1st 30seconds of this video (177886 is me) https://vimeo.com/113008007. (Later on if you watch that far you can see me getting wrong, again an again)

Edited by Marcellus on Sunday 8th November 22:41

[chrisga]

At the start, or going through the gate on a subsequent lap? I'm no expert but if it was on the start the committee boat is not an obstruction. RRS (though I think you guys in the laser fleet use a different set to the rest of us) state:

"SECTION C AT MARKS AND OBSTRUCTIONS
Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by
navigable water or at its anchor line from the time boats are
approaching them to start until they have passed them."

So you can't say the committee boat is an obstruction. Were you moving or stationary at the time? If someone has sailed in below you and then "luffs" you they have to give you room to keep clear, but they have rights as leeward boat. If you were parked next to the committee boat and you cant luff up I think its tough. You need to keep clear of them. Next time don't be so close to the committee boat. If however you were both moving and sailing on starboard toward the committee boat to come in as the gun goes they can sail tight to the back of the committee boat. If you;re above them you have no rights so need to make the decision early to bail as they don't need to let you in to the line.

If you're confused about what you can and can't do, find Jeremy and ask as he's a guru at this sort of thing.

Edited by chrisga on Sunday 8th November 22:49

[mph1977]

Ayahuasca said:

Marcellus said:

a gust will hit, the boat will heal and then I just can't get the bugger flat, all speed gone and back to get the boat going again!!

KEEP THE GODDAM BOAT FLAT!

EASE - HIKE - TRIM.

If it has heeled, it is too late. You spend your energy on a fruitless effort to get the boat flat, you put on masses of rudder to counter the weather helm, you lose rudder authority and by the time you manage to get things under control you are dead in the water.

When a gust hits, don't fight it but instantly ease the main and hike out. Keep the boat flat. As the gust eases pull the main back in. Even if you let off too much main and lose some power it is better than being overpowered.

the Laser has bugger all rudder authority at the best of times so when you heel and /or stall it out ....

[Hard-Drive]

Marcellus said:

Rules are always my downfall but at least they're constantly crap!!

Fixed that for you...

In terms of helpful comments you're always welcome in a Fireball, in fact you're pretty much the right size for the back of one. Come have a go in my eBay bargain one of these days.

In terms of sailing a kneewrecker, I was always told the tactic upwind in some snot is "block to block and stuff in the gusts". However, as I sail proper boats, I can't confirm if this works in a white decked Topper.

[Marcellus]

chrisga said:

If you're confused about what you can and can't do, find Jeremy and ask as he's a guru at this sort of thing.

By coincidence we did have this exact "chat with Jeremy" this very morning...... now don't go asking me for rule numbers and sub-sections as you know I'm crap at those, but basically he was saying if you are next to the committee boat and have your bow past its' rear most part no-one can luff or push you over the line even if they have rights to do so as your only option is to go in a straight line past the committee boat and effectively start (or be over the line at the start but as there's no reference to how fast you must be travelling you're unlikely to be so if you're cute).

To protect against this if you think someone might try and pinch in at that end then you need to stop them getting there in the 1st place, but if you leave the door open then someone may barge in and you're stuffed.

[RumRunner]

Hard-Drive said:

Marcellus said:

Rules are always my downfall but at least they're constantly crap!!

Fixed that for you...

In terms of helpful comments you're always welcome in a Fireball, in fact you're pretty much the right size for the back of one. Come have a go in my eBay bargain one of these days.

In terms of sailing a kneewrecker, I was always told the tactic upwind in some snot is "block to block and stuff in the gusts". However, as I sail proper boats, I can't confirm if this works in a white decked Topper.

Agree to much dumping you tend to fall off leeward...I was told do not fight it with loads of water brake. Other issue is freestanding rig sail shape is flatest when blocked out unless stretched.
You have to find the groove more on the stick than limited sail trim which these rigs have. Finding that on and off button is great training keeping cat hulls flying up hill wihtout moving the sail just finding the slot.

[Marcellus]

To better explain my understanding of committee boat rules here are some pretty piccies;



In the top one Boat A has to give Boat B nothing, ie Boat B cannot ask for room.

In the bottom one Boat A cannot force Boat B on to the committee boat as Boat B has gone past the back of the Committee Boat, so effectively Boat A has to give Boat B room to pass by the Obstruction.

Have I understood it wrongly?

[chrisga]

I wouldn't put myself in the position of B.

I guess your pics don't show whether the boats are moving or stationary, but as far as I am concerned the committee boat is not an obstruction, i.e. you cant ask for permission to avoid it. If someone pushes you up on to it then tough, you shouldn't have been there in the first place. If you were B in the bottom pic you could always sheet in and go and hope to get round the front of A and be back down over the line before the gun goes (not helpful though if its a black flag start - watch for this at the Dash!). You need to be thinking more ahead and don't get yourself boxed in at the committee boat end. Leave enough room so you can head up and not hit the committee boat if needed. If someone else tries to get in the gap you have left just do what you are worried about having done to you if that makes sense. Stuff them up.... I'd say it was pretty obvious what was going to happen to B and I'd have tacked off before my bow went behind the committe boat, or i'd have ducked A and gone below him/her to push them up.

Edited by chrisga on Monday 9th November 09:52