Paris shooting and casualties ?

[don4l]

HerrSchnell said:

jmorgan said:

Are the MCB fairly elected?

If the Electoral Commission's report into vote rigging in Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities is anything to go by I'd say no:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2...

Electoral Commission said:

''These networks tend to be reciprocal, and are hierarchical and patriarchal, which may undermine the principle of voters' individual and free choice through a range of social pressures such as respect for the decision of the elders at its mildest extreme, through to undue influence where in some instances access to individual ballots of women and adult children can be refused by the elders,'' it reported.

As for the idea of licensed Imams, that's only going to lead to further division and sense of victimization. If there's going to be a reformation to an "Islam lite" which is compatible with modern secular democracy then it needs to come from within. However seeing as that would require large chunks of the final testament as dictated directly by god to be discarded I don't see it happening anytime soon and in the meantime we're stuck with gems such as this:

Quran 3.56 said:

As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help

Quran 4.54 said:

Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

Quran 8.12 said:

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Quran 8.57 said:

If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.

Quran 25.52 said:

Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness

Quran 47.3 said:

Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (take hostages)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them. But, in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.

Don't forget 24.2.

100 lashes for adultresses.

I am sure that if I set up a club with mysogonstic, homophobic rules, then I would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

If I suggested that homosexuals should be thrown from a tall building and then stoned to death, I would be rightly put in prison.


We keep hearing about "moderate" muslims, but I haven't heard any muslim denounce violence against adulterers or homosexuals.

Edited by don4l on Sunday 29th November 19:48

[johnxjsc1985]

don4l said:

Don't forget 24.2.

100 lashes for adultresses.

I am sure that if I set up a club with mysogonstic, homophobic rules, then I would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

If I suggested that homosexuals should be thrown from a tall building and then stoned to death, I would be rightly put in prison.


We keep hearing about "moderate" muslims, but I haven't heard any muslim denounce violence against adulterers or homosexuals.

Edited by don4l on Sunday 29th November 19:48

they do not seem to be big into denouncing anything.

[anonymous-user]

There have been many public denunciations of extremism by muslims in recent weeks, including one printed in the Telegraph, but those who choose to believe that all muslims are basically in IS will choose to believe that whatever non IS muslims say.

[johnxjsc1985]

Breadvan72 said:

There have been many public denunciations of extremism by muslims in recent weeks, including one printed in the Telegraph, but those who choose to believe that all muslims are basically in IS will choose to believe that whatever non IS muslims say.

I cant remember any peace marches or appeals for help in identifying any extremists. I don't believe that anyone who raises the question about the lack of moderate Muslims denouncing violence thinks all Muslims are terrorists.

[anonymous-user]

One in London

http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/l...

One planned for Paris was disallowed by the French police under the current Emergency powers.

An earlier one in Ireland

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-Muslims-pro...

There are muslim anti IS Facebook groups, and so on.

Not all, but quite a few posters on the current spate of Islam related threads do appear to think that all muslims can be tarred with one brush. I say down with IS, and would prefer it if Islam died out along with all religions, but as it probably won't die out for a while yet I don't say down with all muslims.

BTW, how many anti IS marches have all us lot been on? Er, not many, I guess. The suggestion that muslims have to go on marches or be criticised but that we don't is just daft. We don't expect Christians to go on marches to apologise for what happened in Colorado the other day, or for whatever the Westboro Baptist crazies have been up to lately.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 29th November 21:21

[jjlynn27]

don4l said:

We keep hearing about "moderate" muslims, but I haven't heard any muslim denounce violence against adulterers or homosexuals.

Edited by don4l on Sunday 29th November 19:48

Why would anyone denounce any action that they are not responsible for?

[Stickyfinger]

jjlynn27 said:

Why would anyone denounce any action that they are not responsible for?

did you read what you typed ?

[jjlynn27]

Stickyfinger said:

jjlynn27 said:

Why would anyone denounce any action that they are not responsible for?

did you read what you typed ?

Sure, let's rephrase it, why would anyone denounce anything that has nothing to do with them. Better?

[Justayellowbadge]

jjlynn27 said:

Stickyfinger said:

jjlynn27 said:

Why would anyone denounce any action that they are not responsible for?

did you read what you typed ?

Sure, let's rephrase it, why would anyone denounce anything that has nothing to do with them. Better?

Because, I suppose, it is being dome in their name, even if they don't want it.

If someone went on a killing spree and claimed to have done it in the interests of JAYB, I'd feel the need to disagree.

I'm not, btw, stating I think they should be denouncing it, just answering your question as to why anyone would think they should.

[irocfan]

Breadvan72 said:

BTW, how many anti IS marches have all us lot been on? Er, not many, I guess. The suggestion that muslims have to go on marches or be criticised but that we don't is just daft. We don't expect Christians to go on marches to apologise for what happened in Colorado the other day, or for whatever the Westboro Baptist crazies have been up to lately.

obviously I'm not impartial but I would argue that WRT the westboro loons or the cocksocket in Colorado it's not comparing like with like. How many Christian rallies do you see where death for unbelievers is called for (or even death for abortionists for that matter)? Where it is demanded that the region/country change to sharia law etc? Now I am quite happy to accept that the meeja have their own agenda for this and thus choose to portray all Muslims in a poor light - but one would have thought that a large enough "fk off we're not in favour of those murderous fks in daesh" protest march would make the news (let's be honest even a few dozen edl fktards marching makes the news so the bar doesn't seem to be set that high)

[jjlynn27]

Justayellowbadge said:

Because, I suppose, it is being dome in their name, even if they don't want it.

If someone went on a killing spree and claimed to have done it in the interests of JAYB, I'd feel the need to disagree.

I'm not, btw, stating I think they should be denouncing it, just answering your question as to why anyone would think they should.

When someone white beats up a black person because the victim is black, 'in the name of whites', I don't feel the need to apologize or denounce action of that person. Not responsible for what other 'people' chose to do.

I happen to know very few Muslims, but wouldn't expect any of them to denounce anything. Same as I wouldn't expect Irish people to denounce IRA or Christians to denounce some despot in some backward hell-hole slaughtering non-believers in the name of Christianity.

My original post, however clumsily worded, was along the lines of responsibility for perpetrators. For example, if I'm in charge of group of traders in my company, and some of them did something illegal, if I was responsible for that person, I'd feel the need to denounce what they did.

[v8250]

Breadvan72 said:

There have been many public denunciations of extremism by muslims in recent weeks, including one printed in the Telegraph, but those who choose to believe that all muslims are basically in IS will choose to believe that whatever non IS muslims say.

BV, there have been SOME public denunciations...there have not been MANY, and there is a significant difference between the two. Of the denunciations they all appear relatively low key with low disruptive influence to fundamental Muslim communities...and therein lies an interesting point as nowhere have I seen, heard or read of a naming and shaming of another Muslim who teaches true/extreme Islamic teachings. Yet the accepted view, both public and private, is that there are many 1000's extreme of view Muslims across Europe. The teachings of Islam are surfdom'esque to the point of 'you will follow the words of your local Imam...' and any deviation to this will be met by the wrath of Allah or his local heavies at your local Mosque. My point here is straight forward, that being very few...if any...Muslims will ever speak out against their fellow Muslim for fear of retribution from within the local Muslim community and/or the regional Islamic Heavies.

If anyone should doubt this, here's Farooq Murad, Secretary of Muslim Council of Britain, failing to directly answer any question posed by Andrew Neil in a recent BBC interview. You will notice that he's as vague as the most slippery of fish. At no stage does the Leader of the MCB clearly state any opposition of Muslim extremism...and this is THE common theme across Muslim leaders with the core belief that above all else, above all discussion, debate and reasoning...Islamic belief can not and never can be questioned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24804125

Any public denunciation is simply shallow lip service to appease the locals knowing full well that most folk have relatively short memories and that in 3-6 months time their attention will be focused on another subject.

[GG89]

Cobnapint said:

Unfortunately for the 'world', this is the software that's being programmed into every single Muslim on a daily basis.

We are wholly reliant on the probably vain hope that the vast majority don't take it too seriously.

What an ever growing and wholly unjust worry that is, to be carrying forward in our modern world.

Nail on the head!

[anonymous-user]

So, muslims get criticised for not making denunciations or for not making enough denunciations. Then, if they make denunciations, these get dismissed as mere lip service. It's a pretty tough gig being an ordinary non terrorist muslim under the harsh glare of the PH "Say you're sorry" Police. I assume that each and every muslim has to go out and physically wrestle several IS troops to the ground and kick their heads in, or give them Paddington hard stares, or something, and even then the PH massive will say "well, they are only doing that to deflect attention."

News item:


http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/muslim-...

[Cobnapint]

don4l said:

Don't forget 24.2.

100 lashes for adultresses.

I am sure that if I set up a club with mysogonstic, homophobic rules, then I would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law

You don't have to set up a club to end up in court - in 2012 a chap in Leicester was prosecuted for ripping pages out of the ROP's book of hatred and throwing it on the floor....

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Atheist-Peter-Cr...


Fortunately the jury (mostly) had some common sense and couldn't agree a verdict.

[Digga]

Breadvan72 said:

So, muslims get criticised for not making denunciations or for not making enough denunciations.

I think the elephant in the room is that it's a really regressive religion. I am sure those with extreme views are the minority and those acting on such views an even smaller subset of the same. however, as others say, it is almost diametrically opposed to the ideals the developed, Western world are trying to promote, in terms of equality, tolerance and inclusivity.

So denunciation or not, there is a big snag. Add into that the fairly clear failures of some communities to abide by our laws - Trojan Horse, the grooming gangs, the postal vote rigging (and there is something else in this pipeline of wonderous cultural exchange) - and I don't really see what more needs to happen before people see that.

[rscott]

Breadvan72 said:

So, muslims get criticised for not making denunciations or for not making enough denunciations. Then, if they make denunciations, these get dismissed as mere lip service. It's a pretty tough gig being an ordinary non terrorist muslim under the harsh glare of the PH "Say you're sorry" Police. I assume that each and every muslim has to go out and physically wrestle several IS troops to the ground and kick their heads in, or give them Paddington hard stares, or something, and even then the PH massive will say "well, they are only doing that to deflect attention."

News item:


http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/muslim-...

Even if every Muslim denounced ISIS, there would just be cries of 'Taqiyya' from some and they'd disregard them.

[Cobnapint]

rscott said:

Breadvan72 said:

So, muslims get criticised for not making denunciations or for not making enough denunciations. Then, if they make denunciations, these get dismissed as mere lip service. It's a pretty tough gig being an ordinary non terrorist muslim under the harsh glare of the PH "Say you're sorry" Police. I assume that each and every muslim has to go out and physically wrestle several IS troops to the ground and kick their heads in, or give them Paddington hard stares, or something, and even then the PH massive will say "well, they are only doing that to deflect attention."

News item:


http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/muslim-...

Even if every Muslim denounced ISIS, there would just be cries of 'Taqiyya' from some and they'd disregard them.

probably with good cause too.

[AJS-]

It's not apologies that are needed. Apologising on behalf of others is silly. Denouncing IS is easy because they're violent lunatics.

What would be more encouraging is Muslims who unequivocally reject the political aspects of Islam. Speak in favour of a secular state with freedom of expression including the freedom to criticise and mock all religions.

Maajid Nawaz does this. Dr Zhudi Jasser does this. The Muslim Council of Britain most certainly don't.

Islam needs to reform in a way that is perhaps even more thorough and fundamental than the way Christianity reformed between the witch burning, heretic slaying lunacy of the middle ages to the biscuits and sing song sort variety that we mostly have in England today.

There's good reason to think that this reform will be as bloody and violent as was Christians, and there's some good reason to suspect it might not happen at all.

On the other hand the fact that it doesn't need to be invented from scratch and the general availability of information and communication these days should mean it can be less bloody and less protracted.

The west can't reform Islam. It has to come from within. What need to do for our own benefit is to be aware of this and protect ourselves from the fallout, and hopefully encourage and aid where we can the right, reformist groups and individuals.

[Zod]

AJS- said:

But the church sacked him and distanced themselves from his views instantly. Spot the difference?


Or...

It's only a tiny minority. Most Christians are ordinary people just getting on with their lives.

Maybe we should make a greater effort to integrate Catholics? Understand them better.

Look at our foreign policy. See if they're discriminated against by the police, underperforming in education and work because of anti-Christian racism.

Let's hope there's no anti Christian backlash. It's a religion of peace and tolerance after all.

Edited by AJS- on Saturday 28th November 03:24

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_emancipatio...