Buy a car with no logbook?
Discussion
This is a car that suits me perfectly and as a fast road / track car it's not something that pops up everyday.... so any advise very much appreciated, apart from the "walk away".
A trader has a car for sale that I'd like to buy but has no log book. Has no proof the car is theirs, in fact has shown me the New Car Supplement part of a log book which shows transferring the ownership to someone in 2009, but is not them. However many say I can simply request a log book via a V62 form (paying £25) and use the same form to tax it. Up to 4 weeks later the logbook will arrive in my name.
So my question is, if the above is true, what stops me filling in a V62 form for a car I see on the street to suggest I'm now the owner? (Although I've also read a V5C doesn't confirm ownership just who is legally responsible for speeding tickets etc - so what does prove ownership?)
(HPI checked and all clear of finance etc etc. Although I can't use an HPI guaranteed check company as they need details off the current log book)
Seems crazy (although understandable for many reasons) that I cant simply validate that this dealer has the right to sell this car.
HELP :-) thankyou
A trader has a car for sale that I'd like to buy but has no log book. Has no proof the car is theirs, in fact has shown me the New Car Supplement part of a log book which shows transferring the ownership to someone in 2009, but is not them. However many say I can simply request a log book via a V62 form (paying £25) and use the same form to tax it. Up to 4 weeks later the logbook will arrive in my name.
So my question is, if the above is true, what stops me filling in a V62 form for a car I see on the street to suggest I'm now the owner? (Although I've also read a V5C doesn't confirm ownership just who is legally responsible for speeding tickets etc - so what does prove ownership?)
(HPI checked and all clear of finance etc etc. Although I can't use an HPI guaranteed check company as they need details off the current log book)
Seems crazy (although understandable for many reasons) that I cant simply validate that this dealer has the right to sell this car.
HELP :-) thankyou
I sold my 130i a few months ago without the logbook, I just could not find it.
Received a letter a week or so later asking if I had sold it and if they DVLA could issue a new logbook.
I sold mine to a dealer so imagine the new owner filled out the request. I wrote back saying I had sold to X dealer and as long as they confirm as well then fine by me.
And that was it, I did scan and print the documents of sale from the dealer to confirm and sent these in with my letter and they sent back the "You no longer are the owner" type letter.
So I would imagine that would happen to the owner of some random car in the street you took a shine to.
Received a letter a week or so later asking if I had sold it and if they DVLA could issue a new logbook.
I sold mine to a dealer so imagine the new owner filled out the request. I wrote back saying I had sold to X dealer and as long as they confirm as well then fine by me.
And that was it, I did scan and print the documents of sale from the dealer to confirm and sent these in with my letter and they sent back the "You no longer are the owner" type letter.
So I would imagine that would happen to the owner of some random car in the street you took a shine to.
Thanks for the speedy reply.....
This isn't a main dealer., far from it... and my concern really is, were the letter to be sent to someone who is currently showing as the registered keeper who then suggests they are not happy for a new Logbook to be issued in my name (for whatever reason), the cash I paid for the car is well, gone.....
This isn't a main dealer., far from it... and my concern really is, were the letter to be sent to someone who is currently showing as the registered keeper who then suggests they are not happy for a new Logbook to be issued in my name (for whatever reason), the cash I paid for the car is well, gone.....
RichV12 said:
This isn't a main dealer., far from it...
Simple question... Do you trust them?If not, then why are you even considering buying a car from them?
RichV12 said:
and my concern really is, were the letter to be sent to someone who is currently showing as the registered keeper who then suggests they are not happy for a new Logbook to be issued in my name (for whatever reason), the cash I paid for the car is well, gone.....
Don't forget that the registered keeper is just that - they are not the legal owner. Even if there was a V5C available, that doesn't stop somebody popping up and lodging a claim on their actual ownership somehow. The only actual tangible property that has registered legal ownership in the UK is land.RichV12 said:
A trader has a car for sale that I'd like to buy but has no log book. Has no proof the car is theirs, in fact has shown me the New Car Supplement part of a log book which shows transferring the ownership to someone in 2009, but is not them.
HELP :-) thankyou
If he has the green new car supplement, you could use that by tip-exing out the details shown and sending that off with the new V62 application.HELP :-) thankyou
I'd never heard of log book loans, so I looked them up. Dirty busines - it appears that the whole sorry mess is being examined and some legislation to be expected in the next few years.
http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/bills-of-sale/
http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/project/bills-of-sale/
RichV12 said:
... I've also read a V5C doesn't confirm ownership just who is legally responsible for speeding tickets etc - so what does prove ownership?)
...
Have you ever actually seen an V5C? Here's one. Note the ever so subtle hidden clue at the top....
The words that are unobtrusively and almost invisibly written at the top of the document in large capital letters are -
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
This is highly complex and obscure legal language (in fact it's actually Latin). In ordinary English, what it means is this:-
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
For some reason, a great many people who profess to have cars, to be interested in cars, and so on, are unaware of this very obscure and recondite piece of information. I blame the dastardly government for hiding it away. If only they would make it plain. Maybe they could write it in really big writing on the top of every V5C, or something.
Ownership is proved by evidence. What evidence is depends on circumstance. A sales receipt saying that X bought car Y from Z could be evidence that X owns car Y. Ultimately, evidence is anything that would convince someone who needed to be convinced of something (usually in this context a buyer, but ultimately a Judge) that something that is claimed to be something is indeed something.
So: only buy the car if you are sure that the dude selling it owns it and is able to sell it to you. Take whatever steps you need to satisfy yourself as to this. At a basic level, those steps could be limited to a personal judgment as to whether the dude is kosher or not. If not satisfied, don't buy.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 24th November 07:45
Id be asking why in 2 years he hasn't requested a V5c and walking away but I'm pretty risk adverse when it comes to buying objects.
I expect its not been taxed/insured/MOT'd for the last 2 years not an issue for a track car, but how would you know this car hasn't been on the road and isn't linked to a huge amount of hassle involved in crime, loads of outstanding invoices or anything. I know any car could have these but if no one can identify the registered keeper and its kept locked up and off the road they'd be unlikely to find it.
I expect its not been taxed/insured/MOT'd for the last 2 years not an issue for a track car, but how would you know this car hasn't been on the road and isn't linked to a huge amount of hassle involved in crime, loads of outstanding invoices or anything. I know any car could have these but if no one can identify the registered keeper and its kept locked up and off the road they'd be unlikely to find it.
Breadvan72 said:
RichV12 said:
... I've also read a V5C doesn't confirm ownership just who is legally responsible for speeding tickets etc - so what does prove ownership?)
...
Have you ever actually seen an V5C? Here's one. Note the ever so subtle hidden clue at the top....
The words that are unobtrusively and almost invisibly written at the top of the document in large capital letters are -
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
This is highly complex and obscure legal language (in fact it's actually Latin). In ordinary English, what it means is this:-
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
For some reason, a great many people who profess to have cars, to be interested in cars, and so on, are unaware of this very obscure and recondite piece of information. I blame the dastardly government for hiding it away. If only they would make it plain. Maybe they could write it in really big writing on the top of every V5C, or something.
Ownership is proved by evidence. What evidence is depends on circumstance. A sales receipt saying that X bought car Y from Z could be evidence that X owns car Y. Ultimately, evidence is anything that would convince someone who needed to be convinced of something (usually in this context a buyer, but ultimately a Judge) that something that is claimed to be something is indeed something.
So: only buy the car if you are sure that the dude selling it owns it and is able to sell it to you. Take whatever steps you need to satisfy yourself as to this. At a basic level, those steps could be limited to a personal judgment as to whether the dude is kosher or not. If not satisfied, don't buy.
I'm not sure but I think I sense sarcasm in that post. Well played old bean.
Breadvan72 said:
Have you ever actually seen an V5C? Here's one. Note the ever so subtle hidden clue at the top.
The words that are unobtrusively and almost invisibly written at the top of the document in large capital letters are -
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
This is highly complex and obscure legal language (in fact it's actually Latin). In ordinary English, what it means is this:-
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
For some reason, a great many people who profess to have cars, to be interested in cars, and so on, are unaware of this very obscure and recondite piece of information. I blame the dastardly government for hiding it away. If only they would make it plain. Maybe they could write it in really big writing on the top of every V5C, or something.
Ownership is proved by evidence. What evidence is depends on circumstance. A sales receipt saying that X bought car Y from Z could be evidence that X owns car Y. Ultimately, evidence is anything that would convince someone who needed to be convinced of something (usually in this context a buyer, but ultimately a Judge) that something that is claimed to be something is indeed something.
So: only buy the car if you are sure that the dude selling it owns it and is able to sell it to you. Take whatever steps you need to satisfy yourself as to this. At a basic level, those steps could be limited to a personal judgment as to whether the dude is kosher or not. If not satisfied, don't buy.
I'm sure you hate to accept the reality that whilst it's not proof of ownership, many find comfort in the fact that at least they have something to do with the vehicle.The words that are unobtrusively and almost invisibly written at the top of the document in large capital letters are -
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
This is highly complex and obscure legal language (in fact it's actually Latin). In ordinary English, what it means is this:-
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT PROOF OF OWNERSHIP
For some reason, a great many people who profess to have cars, to be interested in cars, and so on, are unaware of this very obscure and recondite piece of information. I blame the dastardly government for hiding it away. If only they would make it plain. Maybe they could write it in really big writing on the top of every V5C, or something.
Ownership is proved by evidence. What evidence is depends on circumstance. A sales receipt saying that X bought car Y from Z could be evidence that X owns car Y. Ultimately, evidence is anything that would convince someone who needed to be convinced of something (usually in this context a buyer, but ultimately a Judge) that something that is claimed to be something is indeed something.
So: only buy the car if you are sure that the dude selling it owns it and is able to sell it to you. Take whatever steps you need to satisfy yourself as to this. At a basic level, those steps could be limited to a personal judgment as to whether the dude is kosher or not. If not satisfied, don't buy.
Edited by Breadvan72 on Tuesday 24th November 07:45
There is a strong positive correlation between ownership and registered keeper.
Hate to accept? Er, what? I don't get emotional about V5s. The boring point is that they don't prove ownership. They're not partial proof. They're neutral on the point. Sometimes (often) the keeper is also the owner. Sometimes the keeper isn't the owner. It's not a complicated thing.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 24th November 14:42
Breadvan72 said:
Hate to accept? Er, what? I don't get emotional about V5s. The boring point is that they don't prove ownership. They're not partial proof. They're neutral on the point. Sometimes (often) the keeper is also the owner. Sometimes the keeper isn't the owner. It's not a complicated thing.
I never said they prove ownership.Edited by Breadvan72 on Tuesday 24th November 14:42
My key point is in bold.
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