RE: Bentley Bentayga - the designer's view: PH Blog
Discussion
had ham said:
Absolutely spot on. It's seemingly the point most overlooked here - yes, it'll sell enough because there are enough rich people out there with no taste or sense of style and who just want the badge - but it would sell far better to both demographics if it hadn't been soundly beaten with the ugly stick - as there are far more rich people out there with taste.
This is true but it doesn't take into account that this is not and has never been what the Bentley brand is about. Bentley isn't about taste, it's always been about new money. Arguably, Bentley are one of the few great old British brands that has stuck resolutely to their core values. This is why I don't fully understand why so many people are saying Bentley are wrong to target this demographic. It's exactly what the brand is all about and always has been. It's the luxury brand for the gentleman 'in trade' or the chap from the minor public school out in the provinces.
It's vulgar like a Victorian industrialists country estate that Britons now fawn over.
It's a brand that is all about money and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Especially as we are globally living through the greatest 'new money' explosion since the Industrial Revolution, Britain should once more be getting fat on meeting their consumer demands.
It is an ugly thing and I do agree with the people who say it's silly to try and migrate a brands 'facade' from one type of car to another. They should have been brave enough to strike out in their own to get a look that fit better. But I suspect they know their buyers better than I and I suspect that just like with Porsche where the badge plays a string part in the buying decision it was deemed important that external viewers were left in no doubt that what was before then was a Bentley.
I also think that when you base a premium product on a base product then it isn't actually a premium product. Gold plating is essentially what it is. But I think this type of behaviour is symptomatic of where we are in the growth stage of all these global, new money buyers. In less than a generation I very much suspect that just as fewer wealthy Chinese are putting less Coke into their Petrus, the buyers will become more sophisticated and brands will begin to be punished for their brand whoring.
But, we have to be honest about the taste thing. First of all, the interior is actually rather lovely. Sure,,there are too many shiny bits and contrast piping has and always will be a bit 'ghastly' but given the client base it is all spot on. Secondly, does it really matter that it is aimed at new money? It's not like the PH massive is comprised solely of landed gentry. The English buyers of this car are going to be from identical backgrounds as the average PHer and the only difference is that they have been extremely successful financially. So one has to wonder if that is actually what much of the abject hatred is actually about?
generationx said:
I´m sure this was pretty much the design brief, so it can´t have made the stylist´s task easy.
Aesthetically it does nothing for me, but I´m at least one zero away from the target market...
...And here we go again! If you suddenly found another zero, would this change your opinion of what makes something ugly, or good looking?Aesthetically it does nothing for me, but I´m at least one zero away from the target market...
Why then, do you assume that those who have found that other zero are blind to what makes cars visually attractive? The only thing that differentiates you from the "target market" is money, it's not like you're another species, or from another planet.
The exterior design was no doubt incredibly constrained by all of the attribute targets, and carry over architecture, but I find it a shame that a company such as Bentley, which should produce very strongly design led products, seemingly had such a muted, hand-tied design department in this instance.
While I generally agree with DonkeyApple's assessment, I slightly disagree on his last point.
The class hatred, I feel, works both ways and is a subconscious part of the trend within the well-off section of society to big, blunt, ugly, f
k off tractors.
Back when I was a small kid, schoolmates with well-to-do-parents were dopped off at school in Citroën SMs, Alfa Spiders, Dinos and Jensen Interceptors - aeshetically pleasing vehicles of timeless and universal elegance, and as far as I can remember without exception driven courteously. One might have been jealous, but also genuinely happy about the presence of these nice and exotic things being part of ones immediate environment.
All in all, thinking about it retrospectively, there must have been a sense of 'noblesse oblige' in these circles.
Now look at the form language of the current crop of 'premium' SUVs. They seem to shout 'fk off, peasants' as loudly and obnoxiously as possible, conspicuous consumption of finite resources (see X6 - a 2.3 ton monstrosity on steamroller tyres hogging all of a lane's width that can't comfortably hold four adult passengers...) seems to have become a goal in itself rather than the consequence of providing the utmost level of wellbeing to driver and passengers, and the way they are often seen to be driven, doesn't help either.
You only have to take a look at the 'news & politics' forum here to see this seamlessly ties in with the way the less fortunate in society are being regarded these days. The tone of voice has become rather unsavoury there.
The class hatred, I feel, works both ways and is a subconscious part of the trend within the well-off section of society to big, blunt, ugly, f
k off tractors.Back when I was a small kid, schoolmates with well-to-do-parents were dopped off at school in Citroën SMs, Alfa Spiders, Dinos and Jensen Interceptors - aeshetically pleasing vehicles of timeless and universal elegance, and as far as I can remember without exception driven courteously. One might have been jealous, but also genuinely happy about the presence of these nice and exotic things being part of ones immediate environment.
All in all, thinking about it retrospectively, there must have been a sense of 'noblesse oblige' in these circles.
Now look at the form language of the current crop of 'premium' SUVs. They seem to shout 'f
k off, peasants' as loudly and obnoxiously as possible, conspicuous consumption of finite resources (see X6 - a 2.3 ton monstrosity on steamroller tyres hogging all of a lane's width that can't comfortably hold four adult passengers...) seems to have become a goal in itself rather than the consequence of providing the utmost level of wellbeing to driver and passengers, and the way they are often seen to be driven, doesn't help either. You only have to take a look at the 'news & politics' forum here to see this seamlessly ties in with the way the less fortunate in society are being regarded these days. The tone of voice has become rather unsavoury there.
DonkeyApple said:
This is true but it doesn't take into account that this is not and has never been what the Bentley brand is about. Bentley isn't about taste, it's always been about new money. Arguably, Bentley are one of the few great old British brands that has stuck resolutely to their core values.
This is why I don't fully understand why so many people are saying Bentley are wrong to target this demographic. It's exactly what the brand is all about and always has been. It's the luxury brand for the gentleman 'in trade' or the chap from the minor public school out in the provinces.
It's vulgar like a Victorian industrialists country estate that Britons now fawn over.
It's a brand that is all about money and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Especially as we are globally living through the greatest 'new money' explosion since the Industrial Revolution, Britain should once more be getting fat on meeting their consumer demands.
It is an ugly thing and I do agree with the people who say it's silly to try and migrate a brands 'facade' from one type of car to another. They should have been brave enough to strike out in their own to get a look that fit better. But I suspect they know their buyers better than I and I suspect that just like with Porsche where the badge plays a string part in the buying decision it was deemed important that external viewers were left in no doubt that what was before then was a Bentley.
I also think that when you base a premium product on a base product then it isn't actually a premium product. Gold plating is essentially what it is. But I think this type of behaviour is symptomatic of where we are in the growth stage of all these global, new money buyers. In less than a generation I very much suspect that just as fewer wealthy Chinese are putting less Coke into their Petrus, the buyers will become more sophisticated and brands will begin to be punished for their brand whoring.
But, we have to be honest about the taste thing. First of all, the interior is actually rather lovely. Sure,,there are too many shiny bits and contrast piping has and always will be a bit 'ghastly' but given the client base it is all spot on. Secondly, does it really matter that it is aimed at new money? It's not like the PH massive is comprised solely of landed gentry. The English buyers of this car are going to be from identical backgrounds as the average PHer and the only difference is that they have been extremely successful financially. So one has to wonder if that is actually what much of the abject hatred is actually about?
You make some very valid points - but I think you are missing one fundamental one. Bentley are a commercial concern, owned by (troubled) VAG, and they are in the game simply to make money. My point was that they would make more money, by selling more, by making it an attractive and coherent design in and out. This is why I don't fully understand why so many people are saying Bentley are wrong to target this demographic. It's exactly what the brand is all about and always has been. It's the luxury brand for the gentleman 'in trade' or the chap from the minor public school out in the provinces.
It's vulgar like a Victorian industrialists country estate that Britons now fawn over.
It's a brand that is all about money and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Especially as we are globally living through the greatest 'new money' explosion since the Industrial Revolution, Britain should once more be getting fat on meeting their consumer demands.
It is an ugly thing and I do agree with the people who say it's silly to try and migrate a brands 'facade' from one type of car to another. They should have been brave enough to strike out in their own to get a look that fit better. But I suspect they know their buyers better than I and I suspect that just like with Porsche where the badge plays a string part in the buying decision it was deemed important that external viewers were left in no doubt that what was before then was a Bentley.
I also think that when you base a premium product on a base product then it isn't actually a premium product. Gold plating is essentially what it is. But I think this type of behaviour is symptomatic of where we are in the growth stage of all these global, new money buyers. In less than a generation I very much suspect that just as fewer wealthy Chinese are putting less Coke into their Petrus, the buyers will become more sophisticated and brands will begin to be punished for their brand whoring.
But, we have to be honest about the taste thing. First of all, the interior is actually rather lovely. Sure,,there are too many shiny bits and contrast piping has and always will be a bit 'ghastly' but given the client base it is all spot on. Secondly, does it really matter that it is aimed at new money? It's not like the PH massive is comprised solely of landed gentry. The English buyers of this car are going to be from identical backgrounds as the average PHer and the only difference is that they have been extremely successful financially. So one has to wonder if that is actually what much of the abject hatred is actually about?
This would then appeal to both demographics, including the one you describe above. I recognise some sales from the 'new money' demographic would be lost because it wouldn't be 'tasteless enough' but that would surely be more than off-set by the increase from the other demographics - people who would perhaps would otherwise buy a top end RR/Merc, etc.
By designing this as they have done, they've surely limited the extent to which they can secure market share/volume.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 26th November 09:06
had ham said:
You make some very valid points - but I think you are missing one fundamental one. Bentley are a commercial concern, owned by (troubled) VAG, and they are in the game simply to make money. My point was that they would make more money, by selling more, by making it an attractive and coherent design in and out.
This would then appeal to both demographics, including the one you describe above. I recognise some sales from the 'new money' demographic would be lost because it wouldn't be 'tasteless enough' but that would surely be more than off-set by the increase from the other demographics - people who would perhaps would otherwise buy a top end RR/Merc, etc.
By designing this as they have done, they've surely limited the extent to which they can secure market share/volume.
I think that is very valid. It's why I wonder if, marketing wise, they felt it better to have the first iteration sporting blatantly obvious modern Bentley looks over a more elegant solution which may be what we see in a few years when it is facelifted?This would then appeal to both demographics, including the one you describe above. I recognise some sales from the 'new money' demographic would be lost because it wouldn't be 'tasteless enough' but that would surely be more than off-set by the increase from the other demographics - people who would perhaps would otherwise buy a top end RR/Merc, etc.
By designing this as they have done, they've surely limited the extent to which they can secure market share/volume.
Edited by had ham on Thursday 26th November 09:06
But they have vast swathes of data in everyone who has ever owned, borrowed or bought second hand or even just bought associated goods or associates with their customers. They will have analysed every bit of this data and come to the commercial conclusion that it needs to look like the other cars and needs a stupid clock.
I would agree 100% with you but deep down I suspect that the data monkeys at VW are better than me at this thing.
900T-R said:
While I generally agree with DonkeyApple's assessment, I slightly disagree on his last point.
The class hatred, I feel, works both ways and is a subconscious part of the trend within the well-off section of society to big, blunt, ugly, fk off tractors.
Back when I was a small kid, schoolmates with well-to-do-parents were dopped off at school in Citroën SMs, Alfa Spiders, Dinos and Jensen Interceptors - aeshetically pleasing vehicles of timeless and universal elegance, and as far as I can remember without exception driven courteously. One might have been jealous, but also genuinely happy about the presence of these nice and exotic things being part of ones immediate environment.
All in all, thinking about it retrospectively, there must have been a sense of 'noblesse oblige' in these circles.
Now look at the form language of the current crop of 'premium' SUVs. They seem to shout 'fk off, peasants' as loudly and obnoxiously as possible, conspicuous consumption of finite resources (see X6 - a 2.3 ton monstrosity on steamroller tyres hogging all of a lane's width that can't comfortably hold four adult passengers...) seems to have become a goal in itself rather than the consequence of providing the utmost level of wellbeing to driver and passengers, and the way they are often seen to be driven, doesn't help either.
You only have to take a look at the 'news & politics' forum here to see this seamlessly ties in with the way the less fortunate in society are being regarded these days. The tone of voice has become rather unsavoury there.
I couldn't agree more. If someone is escaping the gravitational pull of one socio economic group then there is a well defined tendency to then have disdain for what they have left behind. Forgetting their roots is the English term. The class hatred, I feel, works both ways and is a subconscious part of the trend within the well-off section of society to big, blunt, ugly, f
k off tractors.Back when I was a small kid, schoolmates with well-to-do-parents were dopped off at school in Citroën SMs, Alfa Spiders, Dinos and Jensen Interceptors - aeshetically pleasing vehicles of timeless and universal elegance, and as far as I can remember without exception driven courteously. One might have been jealous, but also genuinely happy about the presence of these nice and exotic things being part of ones immediate environment.
All in all, thinking about it retrospectively, there must have been a sense of 'noblesse oblige' in these circles.
Now look at the form language of the current crop of 'premium' SUVs. They seem to shout 'f
k off, peasants' as loudly and obnoxiously as possible, conspicuous consumption of finite resources (see X6 - a 2.3 ton monstrosity on steamroller tyres hogging all of a lane's width that can't comfortably hold four adult passengers...) seems to have become a goal in itself rather than the consequence of providing the utmost level of wellbeing to driver and passengers, and the way they are often seen to be driven, doesn't help either. You only have to take a look at the 'news & politics' forum here to see this seamlessly ties in with the way the less fortunate in society are being regarded these days. The tone of voice has become rather unsavoury there.
Likewise, when a chap is on his way down as his family status declines over generations then you see the same tendency for contempt of where they see themselves heading.
And re your latter point, N&P is a loony bin of blokes angry at their own failings but trying hard to make out its someone else's fault, mostly women, poor people and immigrants.
I thought Bentley had always been 'old money' like a larger version of Bristol..... at least until VAG took over and we'd out the image in the name of profit....
Regardless, there are an infinite amount of ways the exterior design could've gone, all of which would've/could've shouted 'new money' and 'Bentley'(like the Mk1 Cayenne) and they've chosen one which is sadly, well below par.
e'd out the image in the name of profit....Regardless, there are an infinite amount of ways the exterior design could've gone, all of which would've/could've shouted 'new money' and 'Bentley'(like the Mk1 Cayenne) and they've chosen one which is sadly, well below par.
D.no said:
...And here we go again! If you suddenly found another zero, would this change your opinion of what makes something ugly, or good looking?
Why then, do you assume that those who have found that other zero are blind to what makes cars visually attractive? The only thing that differentiates you from the "target market" is money, it's not like you're another species, or from another planet.
The exterior design was no doubt incredibly constrained by all of the attribute targets, and carry over architecture, but I find it a shame that a company such as Bentley, which should produce very strongly design led products, seemingly had such a muted, hand-tied design department in this instance.
What a ridiculous over-reaction and over-hysterical, judgemental post. If you would care to read my post you would see that (a) I PERSONALLY do not like it, without mentioning other people´s opinions and (b) I am stating that I am not the target market. I wouldn´t want it even if I was because I´m not in to this type of vehicle, whether it costs 250K or 250 quid.Why then, do you assume that those who have found that other zero are blind to what makes cars visually attractive? The only thing that differentiates you from the "target market" is money, it's not like you're another species, or from another planet.
The exterior design was no doubt incredibly constrained by all of the attribute targets, and carry over architecture, but I find it a shame that a company such as Bentley, which should produce very strongly design led products, seemingly had such a muted, hand-tied design department in this instance.
Chip. On. Shoulder. Bell-end.
DonkeyApple said:
This is why I don't fully understand why so many people are saying Bentley are wrong to target this demographic. It's exactly what the brand is all about and always has been. It's the luxury brand for the gentleman 'in trade' or the chap from the minor public school out in the provinces.
From what I can tell, pretty much no-one has a problem with Bentley targeting this demographic. Most people don't even have a problem with Bentley producing an SUV. It seems the majority think the interior is brilliant too. The only real issue is that everyone thinks it looks a bit crap on the outside and that it is a disappointment that the designers didn't have the balls to go for it and so now we just have another fairly bland & generic looking VAG SUV on the road.
had ham said:
You make some very valid points - but I think you are missing one fundamental one. Bentley are a commercial concern, owned by (troubled) VAG, and they are in the game simply to make money. My point was that they would make more money, by selling more, by making it an attractive and coherent design in and out.
This would then appeal to both demographics, including the one you describe above. I recognise some sales from the 'new money' demographic would be lost because it wouldn't be 'tasteless enough' but that would surely be more than off-set by the increase from the other demographics - people who would perhaps would otherwise buy a top end RR/Merc, etc.
By designing this as they have done, they've surely limited the extent to which they can secure market share/volume.
I think that the rest of the car is so well executed that many people will be able to forgive the exterior's shortcomings.This would then appeal to both demographics, including the one you describe above. I recognise some sales from the 'new money' demographic would be lost because it wouldn't be 'tasteless enough' but that would surely be more than off-set by the increase from the other demographics - people who would perhaps would otherwise buy a top end RR/Merc, etc.
By designing this as they have done, they've surely limited the extent to which they can secure market share/volume.
Edited by had ham on Thursday 26th November 09:06
I'd like to see a Range Rover and Bentayga parked side by side, I actually think the Range Rover would have more presence & look like the more expensive car from the outside (of course, thanks to a good marketing team & a little 'clock' trick, we all know differently
). Though from the inside, I'd bet the extra cost for the Bentayga would be pretty obvious.Monitary value has nothing to do with the looks of this vehicle.
It's obviously designed to look like a part of the Bentley range. Which right now is not a range of pretty cars.
Too much bling and/or melted bar of soap styling going on.
Maybe good for massive depreciation, may not sell as well as expected. Its looks may grow in time, like some of bangles stuff, who knows.
For sure there are other countries whos natives quite like the look of cars which we consider to be ugly. They have a very different taste, these countries are financially on the up. Also their roads are generally in a crap state which is why they like 4x4s.
They will be the target market. More than footballers wife or the MD who lives up a lane.
I can imagine they will be blinged up to a very high standard of bling.
It's everything most of us hate about the industry.
I showed a picture of it to the other half yesterday, to my surprise she said it looks nice.
It's obviously designed to look like a part of the Bentley range. Which right now is not a range of pretty cars.
Too much bling and/or melted bar of soap styling going on.
Maybe good for massive depreciation, may not sell as well as expected. Its looks may grow in time, like some of bangles stuff, who knows.
For sure there are other countries whos natives quite like the look of cars which we consider to be ugly. They have a very different taste, these countries are financially on the up. Also their roads are generally in a crap state which is why they like 4x4s.
They will be the target market. More than footballers wife or the MD who lives up a lane.
I can imagine they will be blinged up to a very high standard of bling.
It's everything most of us hate about the industry.
I showed a picture of it to the other half yesterday, to my surprise she said it looks nice.
Edited by deltashad on Thursday 26th November 11:41
had ham said:
You make some very valid points - but I think you are missing one fundamental one. Bentley are a commercial concern, owned by (troubled) VAG, and they are in the game simply to make money. My point was that they would make more money, by selling more, by making it an attractive and coherent design in and out.
This would then appeal to both demographics, including the one you describe above. I recognise some sales from the 'new money' demographic would be lost because it wouldn't be 'tasteless enough' but that would surely be more than off-set by the increase from the other demographics - people who would perhaps would otherwise buy a top end RR/Merc, etc.
By designing this as they have done, they've surely limited the extent to which they can secure market share/volume.
Indeed. What possible harm can making something look visibly attractive do/have? Counter that with the question of what possible harm making something look unattractive can have/do...This would then appeal to both demographics, including the one you describe above. I recognise some sales from the 'new money' demographic would be lost because it wouldn't be 'tasteless enough' but that would surely be more than off-set by the increase from the other demographics - people who would perhaps would otherwise buy a top end RR/Merc, etc.
By designing this as they have done, they've surely limited the extent to which they can secure market share/volume.
Edited by had ham on Thursday 26th November 09:06
I'm not bemoaning the family resemblance thing - that's pretty much a given, it's the execution of it that seems lacking. Certain elements appear as apologetic pastiches, whereas others are very heavy handed and to my eyes at least, it doesn't work too well. I didn't intend to get drawn into the demographic conversation. Good design, is good design, and should transcend price point.
The point I've being trying to make (in vain it seems) relates to all the posts that mention "target customers" or "target market" as if those customers, by dent of their financial situation have somehow lost the ability to distinguish between something that looks good, and something that doesn't. Admittedly they may choose to turn temporarily blind simply to have an SUV offering from Bentley , because it's a statement, but surely the Bentayga could (and should) have been a far more aspirational product because of it's looks, not in spite of them.
D.no said:
The point I've being trying to make (in vain it seems) relates to all the posts that mention "target customers" or "target market" as if those customers, by dent of their financial situation have somehow lost the ability to distinguish between something that looks good, and something that doesn't.
The point I was trying to make with my referral to 'target markets' is that aesthetic values aren't universal all over the world. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff