Reasonable use of garage?
Discussion
Dear PH lawyer types can I ask a question please? This will be quite a long post, as I think the devil might be in the detail, so please bear with me.
I currently rent a 2 bed seni-detached house with a garage. The garage is one of three that sit underneath the house separated from mine by the communal path. I will try to upload a photo to explain.
I am a serving member of the Armed Forces so I deal with an agent who acts on my behalf, as such I don't see any of the normal rental agreements I sign a copy of a contract with the Army and they provide the accommodation. I have friendly conversations with my neighbours in the connected house, and everyone else in the close I see. I have previously only spoken to the owner of the house over the garage, to be known as Mr x, once in the last 2 years I've lived there and then only to say “morning”.
About 6 weeks asked go I decided to try wood turning and bought a small 3/4hp lathe off eBay. I have got some scraps of wood and try to turn logs into something better than sawdust in the garage. I have deliberately kept the turning to reasonable hours, I've always stopped before 2100hrs, and I don't turn every evening. I don't play music whilst I turn and several of the neighbours stop and chat as they walk past. I have never had and single complaint, indeed his neighbours have offered me their old kitchen cupboards and work surface so that I can make the garage and bit nicer! I stand next to the lathe without hearing protection and it is possible to hold a conversation whilst it is running, although I usually turn it off when speaking. I also a have a small bench grinder that I use to sharpen my tools approximately one a week or so. It never runs for more than a couple of minutes at a time. Other than that there are only normal household tools in the garage.
Last night he approached me when I got back from work and told me that his solicitors had written to the title deed holder of my house but it was for me and gave me a copy. He stated that I had to stop making any noise in the garage and remove the electrical supply. He acknowledged that I hadn't put in the electrical supply but said it had to go. I asked why he hadn't simply spoken to me when I was disturbing him and he said that I should have asked him if I was causing a disturbance!
The solicitors letter states:
“Mr x has been prompted to I vestige the lease because the occupiers of Yyyy ( we take it yourselves) have installed some mechanical equipment and engineering tools in the garage. During evenings and weekends he is spending time in the garage doing what sounds to be metalwork. This is causing excessive noise and vibration in our clients property and is effecting his ability to sleep. Mr x works shifts and needs to be able to rest at home when he is not at work. This can be any time of the day or night. He is also in a job where he is on call and as such, his sleeping patterns are irregular and he has to work anti-social hours.
It is therefore quite important to him that his home is and place of peace and quiet as has hitherto been the case.
In the course of last winter our client noticed that a ceiling strip light had been installed in the garage. It is only recently that the tools and machinery have been installed and put to use.
Due to Mr x's job there is simply no suitable time for people to carry out works like this in the garage and Mr x also concerned about the question of fire safety. If welding is carried out in the garage then that might have implications for the insurance policy.”
It goes on to say that they deem everything to be in breach of the lease and I must stop immediately. The lease they have attached is between a building developments company and 2 named individuals I do not know. They are not Mr x , my landlord or the current deed holder (as named by the solicitors). The lease is dated Nov ’94 and is, I presume, the original lease of the garage to the property when they were both built. The solicitors specifically list 5 breaches, as follows:
“The lessee shall not without the prior written consent of the Lessor make any alterations or additions to the Demised Premises …” The installation of an electrical supply is an unauthorised alteration to the Demised Premises.
“The Lessee shall not without the prior written consent of the Lessor cut maim or injury the structure or parts of the Block or suspend anything from the ceiling of the garage.” The drilling of the hole in the wall to accommodate the electrical cable and handling a strip light from the ceiling are in breach of the lease.
“The Lessee shall not use the garage upon the Demised Premises other than as a domestic garage for a single private motor car …” The use of the garage for engineering works and metalwork contravenes this part of the covenants.
“The Lessee shall not do or commit or suffer to be done any act or thing on or about the Demised Premises which shall or might grow to be an annoyance or nuisance or cause damage or disturbance to the Lessor ….” Noise from the machinery and works being undertaken in the garage is an obvious disturbance, annoyance and nuisance to Mr x and is in breach of clause 12.
“The Lessee shall not erect and external wires or television aerials.” The erection of the external electrical wires are in breach of this clause of the lease.
The letter then goes on to state that the lease gives Mr x the right to claim back some of his insurance bills for the garage and would I mind paying £zz to him. Now I do not know how long Mr x has lived there and when the electrical supply was put in. It is dug under the path and is a respectable sized SWA that is chased into the walls of my house and fed from a circuit breaker in the fuse box. There is a secondary fuse box in the garage and it all looks like it has been there a long time. Due to the fact I can find no signs whatsoever of the cable being retrospectively fitted, and I don’t think the house has been decorated in 20 years, I suspect that it might be original or at least very old and predate Mr x buying the property. I have asked my agent to try and find the date and if there is any written consent from the owner at the time.
That aside is there any truth in the letter, and I have deliberately left in the grammatical errors and inconsistent language, or do I have a case that undertaking a bit of hobby woodturning in my garage between 1700hrs and 2100hrs is reasonable and he should just get used to it? I am somewhat upset that he couldn’t act like a grownup and talk to me but understand that I have to live with the neighbours.
Many thanks for reading this far and any advice.
Jon
I currently rent a 2 bed seni-detached house with a garage. The garage is one of three that sit underneath the house separated from mine by the communal path. I will try to upload a photo to explain.
I am a serving member of the Armed Forces so I deal with an agent who acts on my behalf, as such I don't see any of the normal rental agreements I sign a copy of a contract with the Army and they provide the accommodation. I have friendly conversations with my neighbours in the connected house, and everyone else in the close I see. I have previously only spoken to the owner of the house over the garage, to be known as Mr x, once in the last 2 years I've lived there and then only to say “morning”.
About 6 weeks asked go I decided to try wood turning and bought a small 3/4hp lathe off eBay. I have got some scraps of wood and try to turn logs into something better than sawdust in the garage. I have deliberately kept the turning to reasonable hours, I've always stopped before 2100hrs, and I don't turn every evening. I don't play music whilst I turn and several of the neighbours stop and chat as they walk past. I have never had and single complaint, indeed his neighbours have offered me their old kitchen cupboards and work surface so that I can make the garage and bit nicer! I stand next to the lathe without hearing protection and it is possible to hold a conversation whilst it is running, although I usually turn it off when speaking. I also a have a small bench grinder that I use to sharpen my tools approximately one a week or so. It never runs for more than a couple of minutes at a time. Other than that there are only normal household tools in the garage.
Last night he approached me when I got back from work and told me that his solicitors had written to the title deed holder of my house but it was for me and gave me a copy. He stated that I had to stop making any noise in the garage and remove the electrical supply. He acknowledged that I hadn't put in the electrical supply but said it had to go. I asked why he hadn't simply spoken to me when I was disturbing him and he said that I should have asked him if I was causing a disturbance!
The solicitors letter states:
“Mr x has been prompted to I vestige the lease because the occupiers of Yyyy ( we take it yourselves) have installed some mechanical equipment and engineering tools in the garage. During evenings and weekends he is spending time in the garage doing what sounds to be metalwork. This is causing excessive noise and vibration in our clients property and is effecting his ability to sleep. Mr x works shifts and needs to be able to rest at home when he is not at work. This can be any time of the day or night. He is also in a job where he is on call and as such, his sleeping patterns are irregular and he has to work anti-social hours.
It is therefore quite important to him that his home is and place of peace and quiet as has hitherto been the case.
In the course of last winter our client noticed that a ceiling strip light had been installed in the garage. It is only recently that the tools and machinery have been installed and put to use.
Due to Mr x's job there is simply no suitable time for people to carry out works like this in the garage and Mr x also concerned about the question of fire safety. If welding is carried out in the garage then that might have implications for the insurance policy.”
It goes on to say that they deem everything to be in breach of the lease and I must stop immediately. The lease they have attached is between a building developments company and 2 named individuals I do not know. They are not Mr x , my landlord or the current deed holder (as named by the solicitors). The lease is dated Nov ’94 and is, I presume, the original lease of the garage to the property when they were both built. The solicitors specifically list 5 breaches, as follows:
“The lessee shall not without the prior written consent of the Lessor make any alterations or additions to the Demised Premises …” The installation of an electrical supply is an unauthorised alteration to the Demised Premises.
“The Lessee shall not without the prior written consent of the Lessor cut maim or injury the structure or parts of the Block or suspend anything from the ceiling of the garage.” The drilling of the hole in the wall to accommodate the electrical cable and handling a strip light from the ceiling are in breach of the lease.
“The Lessee shall not use the garage upon the Demised Premises other than as a domestic garage for a single private motor car …” The use of the garage for engineering works and metalwork contravenes this part of the covenants.
“The Lessee shall not do or commit or suffer to be done any act or thing on or about the Demised Premises which shall or might grow to be an annoyance or nuisance or cause damage or disturbance to the Lessor ….” Noise from the machinery and works being undertaken in the garage is an obvious disturbance, annoyance and nuisance to Mr x and is in breach of clause 12.
“The Lessee shall not erect and external wires or television aerials.” The erection of the external electrical wires are in breach of this clause of the lease.
The letter then goes on to state that the lease gives Mr x the right to claim back some of his insurance bills for the garage and would I mind paying £zz to him. Now I do not know how long Mr x has lived there and when the electrical supply was put in. It is dug under the path and is a respectable sized SWA that is chased into the walls of my house and fed from a circuit breaker in the fuse box. There is a secondary fuse box in the garage and it all looks like it has been there a long time. Due to the fact I can find no signs whatsoever of the cable being retrospectively fitted, and I don’t think the house has been decorated in 20 years, I suspect that it might be original or at least very old and predate Mr x buying the property. I have asked my agent to try and find the date and if there is any written consent from the owner at the time.
That aside is there any truth in the letter, and I have deliberately left in the grammatical errors and inconsistent language, or do I have a case that undertaking a bit of hobby woodturning in my garage between 1700hrs and 2100hrs is reasonable and he should just get used to it? I am somewhat upset that he couldn’t act like a grownup and talk to me but understand that I have to live with the neighbours.
Many thanks for reading this far and any advice.
Jon
Edited by Jonleeper on Thursday 26th November 11:22
^^
What he said
its a very unusual set up with your garage in the neighbours property , but I would side with the neighbour tbh.
it should be a place to park/store the car and no work should be taking place there due to the inevitable disturbance to the occupier.
common sense really innit?
What he said
its a very unusual set up with your garage in the neighbours property , but I would side with the neighbour tbh.
it should be a place to park/store the car and no work should be taking place there due to the inevitable disturbance to the occupier.
common sense really innit?
Where's the popcorn.
Tell him to JOG ON.
Surely, and I'm sure a legal bod will be around, but wood-working is not welding. There is no fire risk.
You can't say "I work shifts and on-call and also sleep weirdly so there is NO time during the day EVER that you can use your garage for recreational work".
Reasonable hours should apply to be fair.
The whole "You should of asked me if it was causing a problem" smacks of pussy-whipped-asshole syndrome where he's not got the balls to say to your face, sorry mate would you mind working only at certain times, to which I'm sure you'd have been reasonable.
And telling you to remove the electrical supply? Tell him to p
s off.
Tell him to JOG ON.
Surely, and I'm sure a legal bod will be around, but wood-working is not welding. There is no fire risk.
You can't say "I work shifts and on-call and also sleep weirdly so there is NO time during the day EVER that you can use your garage for recreational work".
Reasonable hours should apply to be fair.
The whole "You should of asked me if it was causing a problem" smacks of pussy-whipped-asshole syndrome where he's not got the balls to say to your face, sorry mate would you mind working only at certain times, to which I'm sure you'd have been reasonable.
And telling you to remove the electrical supply? Tell him to p
s off. I have no idea what 'Reach of the Lease' means in this context - unless it means breech of the lease.
If that is the case then LL will have to remove the power and you will have no power to power your machines.
I would not be surprised if the chap above owns the freehold of the building, in turn the garage being let on a long lease to your landlord. If so Your LL would be required to ask for consent to make alterations, and it would be fairly reasonable to object to power on the basis of safety and noise (where does the power come from?)
All based on the exact terms of the lease, and my guess as to how they will look.
If that is the case then LL will have to remove the power and you will have no power to power your machines.
I would not be surprised if the chap above owns the freehold of the building, in turn the garage being let on a long lease to your landlord. If so Your LL would be required to ask for consent to make alterations, and it would be fairly reasonable to object to power on the basis of safety and noise (where does the power come from?)
All based on the exact terms of the lease, and my guess as to how they will look.
surveyor said:
I would not be surprised if the chap above owns the freehold of the building, in turn the garage being let on a long lease to your landlord. If so Your LL would be required to ask for consent to make alterations, and it would be fairly reasonable to object to power on the basis of safety and noise (where does the power come from?)
All based on the exact terms of the lease, and my guess as to how they will look.
I believe that is indeed the setup of coachhouses (or FOGs). There will be a lease and the terms of the lease will be the key. AFAIK it can be unusual for these garages to have power, in order to avoid these type of issues.All based on the exact terms of the lease, and my guess as to how they will look.
May come down to if it is causing a statutory nuisance. Check the local council website in your area and the environmental health group would probably be happy to discuss it with you, especially if it saves them coming out with measurement gear to deal with the complaints. I would suspect it would cause a nuisance to the man in the house so they would probably serve you with an abatement order if you were to continue. Switch to hand tools, hand carving is more interesting anyway 
http://www.cieh.org/policy/environmental-protectio...
http://www.cieh.org/policy/environmental-protectio...
It's quite common on new-build housing estates, the developers refer to these as FOGs (Flat over garage). Normally a block of 3 or 4 garages has a flat above, which gains one garage, the other garages being on long lease to nearby properties.
Mine is in some ways the reverse of the OP in that I own my house, the flat over the garage is rented out as a BTL. My lease on the garage (1000 year lease) states that it's not permitted to work on cars in the garage, but fortunately the freeholder of the garage agreed that was ridiculous as he has old motorbikes at home. It equally states that the freeholder must give me a copy of the insurance for the building every year, and that doesn't happen either...
I suspect that by the letter of the lease mechanical work is likely to be banned, but I doubt wood turning would be specifically listed. It is quite likely they have the OP or his landlord bang to rights over an electrical install though, particularly if the pathway isn't within the title of the OP's house.
Mine is in some ways the reverse of the OP in that I own my house, the flat over the garage is rented out as a BTL. My lease on the garage (1000 year lease) states that it's not permitted to work on cars in the garage, but fortunately the freeholder of the garage agreed that was ridiculous as he has old motorbikes at home. It equally states that the freeholder must give me a copy of the insurance for the building every year, and that doesn't happen either...
I suspect that by the letter of the lease mechanical work is likely to be banned, but I doubt wood turning would be specifically listed. It is quite likely they have the OP or his landlord bang to rights over an electrical install though, particularly if the pathway isn't within the title of the OP's house.
The guy that lives over the garage is clearly an arse. What should have been a reasonable request has now been turned into a problem. Your problem of course is that the tenancy agreement doesn't apply to you and you're stuck with SFA/SLA rules. You'd be better off not using the lathe again and keeping any noise in the garage to a minimum.
I pulled out of a new build house purchase a few years ago for this very reason.
Big detached house with a triple garage at the end of the garden. Since they built the house before the garage it wasn't long until i discovered that, like yours, it had an apartment built over the garage! No mention of this beforehand naturally.
You could pretty much guarantee it was going to lead to complaints about me opening the garage during unsociable hours, running the engine as i put the car in and out of the garage and just about every other use of the space.
Big detached house with a triple garage at the end of the garden. Since they built the house before the garage it wasn't long until i discovered that, like yours, it had an apartment built over the garage! No mention of this beforehand naturally.
You could pretty much guarantee it was going to lead to complaints about me opening the garage during unsociable hours, running the engine as i put the car in and out of the garage and just about every other use of the space.
"I have deliberately kept the turning to reasonable hours, I've always stopped before 2100hrs and I don't turn every evening. I don't play music whilst I turn and several of the neighbours stop and chat as they walk past. I have never had and single complaint"
I wouldn't call running a lathe most evenings up to 9pm reasonable. Especially directly underneath someone else's living accommodation.
I wouldn't call running a lathe most evenings up to 9pm reasonable. Especially directly underneath someone else's living accommodation.
Ive had people complain at me before regarding shift work , in my old place I took a day off work to do some DIY, knew it would make a bit of noise, not too excessive so did it at lunchtime
A lady came screaming round at me , as her mum inside works shifts so needs to sleep during the day, no discussion nothing! Just stop, well I cant make the noise at night!
My misses works nights so im well aware of the issues but you cant expect silence every day through the day,
If it was me, I would stop a bit ealier in the evening/do it at weekends, see if you can miminise the noise more and carry on. Surely you neighbours legal address is to your landlord, who will in turn go to you. I would read through your lease regarding anything it could cover
Depends how long you want to stay there tbh
A lady came screaming round at me , as her mum inside works shifts so needs to sleep during the day, no discussion nothing! Just stop, well I cant make the noise at night!
My misses works nights so im well aware of the issues but you cant expect silence every day through the day,
If it was me, I would stop a bit ealier in the evening/do it at weekends, see if you can miminise the noise more and carry on. Surely you neighbours legal address is to your landlord, who will in turn go to you. I would read through your lease regarding anything it could cover
Depends how long you want to stay there tbh
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Thursday 26th November 11:39
My garage is below someones flat and bedroom. Never had one complaint about opening doors and putting the car away. It's what garages are designed for so I doubt they would have anything to stand on if they did complain. I mean if you buy a flat over a garage, what do you expect?
It's like those buying a house under a flight path then complaining about aircraft noise.
It's like those buying a house under a flight path then complaining about aircraft noise.
TwistingMyMelon said:
Ive had people complain at me before regarding shift work , in my old place I took a day off work to do some DIY, knew it would make a bit of noise, not too excessive so did it at lunchtime
A lady came screaming round at me , as her mum inside works shifts so needs to sleep during the day, no discussion nothing! Just stop, well I cant make the noise at night!
My misses works nights so im well aware of the issues but you cant expect silence every day through the day,
If it was me, I would stop a bit ealier in the evening/do it at weekends, see if you can miminise the noise more and carry on. Surely you neighbours legal address is to your landlord, who will in turn go to you. I would read through your lease regarding anything it could cover
The landlord's problem is that this will be likely against the terms of the lease. The landlord (and his lender) will not be happy at the thread of having his lease disclaimed and pressure will undoubtedly be applied.A lady came screaming round at me , as her mum inside works shifts so needs to sleep during the day, no discussion nothing! Just stop, well I cant make the noise at night!
My misses works nights so im well aware of the issues but you cant expect silence every day through the day,
If it was me, I would stop a bit ealier in the evening/do it at weekends, see if you can miminise the noise more and carry on. Surely you neighbours legal address is to your landlord, who will in turn go to you. I would read through your lease regarding anything it could cover
HantsRat said:
My garage is below someones flat and bedroom. Never had one complaint about opening doors and putting the car away. It's what garages are designed for so I doubt they would have anything to stand on if they did complain. I mean if you buy a flat over a garage, what do you expect?
It's like those buying a house under a flight path then complaining about aircraft noise.
The bloke above doesn't have a problem with the door opening or a car being parked in the garage. He doesn't want to listen to woodwork machinery all evening.It's like those buying a house under a flight path then complaining about aircraft noise.
OP should rent a place with its own integral garage where it wont affect anyone else.
D
spikey78 said:
Looking at the age of the house I suspect the sound insulation isn't great, and therefore the noise of a lathe is probably highly irritating.
I think his complaint is 100% legitimate
Me too, though the way he has gone about it may be a little OTT. No need to remove the power supply, IMO, but a lathe turning in there, even if it doesn't sound that loud, is bound to send vibrations through the place.I think his complaint is 100% legitimate
BoRED S2upid said:
I'd be buying a very noisy car and parking that in my garage. See what he has to say about that.
He'd probably see it as a minor annoyance but accept it's only for a few seconds each day.Surprised and saddened to see so many people siding with the OP. You should just apologise and stop doing it.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff