Cayman GT4 Clubsport V 911 GT3 Cup Car

Cayman GT4 Clubsport V 911 GT3 Cup Car

Author
Discussion

Steve Rance

5,435 posts

230 months

Monday 30th November 2015
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Haven't raced a fully electronic gearshift system before to be honest only mechanical sequentials with electrical cut out software. Ther driver has full control of downshift timings. Personally would not be happy without control to override electronics if I needed to. I am not familiar with the PDK system so can't comment but it better be bloody tough if they are going racing with it. Is it the same essential concept as the 962 box?

ChrisW.

6,210 posts

254 months

Monday 30th November 2015
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From what I've seen it's an integrated dry sump with deeper sump ... and 100 cell race cats ...

Harris_I

3,225 posts

258 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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Steve Rance said:
If I chose a downshift that will over rev the engine, I expect it to happen. I will not expect the gearbox software to over ride the shift. Race engines are regularly buzzed in the heat of racing. I used the box to lock the wheels of a 996 cup at Castle Coombe once during qualy to prevent a big shunt. The Motec showed a buz of well over 10,000rpm but the engine was fine (my point on the Metz engine Adam). Just needed a new clutch and we were out for the race. 100 hours later the engine was still winning races. If my gearbox would have prevented the downshift, I may well may not be here now.
NAS90 did something similar in a 996 Cup at the Dubai Autodrome a few years back. Brakes failed so he downshifted to lock the wheels and turned the car backwards to give himself a chance when he hit the barrier. I seem to recall the engine survived. He can fill in the details (unless PTSD has erased it from memory - he was doing over 250kph at the time).

fergus

6,430 posts

274 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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ChrisW. said:
From what I've seen it's an integrated dry sump with deeper sump ...
If it's a dry sump, it can have a bucket for a sump, it won't be used for holding oil though.

Steve Rance

5,435 posts

230 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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Thats what is confusing me. You dont get sumps in dry sump engines. Any engineers out there that can shed some light on this?

Magic919

14,126 posts

200 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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It's the usual 'marketing' dry sump, but deeper (just like the aftermarket kits). That's my take.

hunter 66

3,886 posts

219 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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Steve , as you know we had a little issue with the ferrari and downshifting in torrential rain ........ result an off ..

Dr S

4,995 posts

225 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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hunter 66 said:
As I have said on numerous occasions This is the customer direction for Porsche Motorsport to go GT4 class and now there are possibly no or very few customer cars racing in GT3 anymore .
Crazy rush for anything with GT title from Porsche .............. financially driven
The Aston GT4 is still maybe a better package ....
Agree costs for GT4 are better and more realistic for Gentleman/ am racing ..
NIce looking car though .......
Well, the GT4 Vantage (SP10) steals a Cayman S (V6) eight seconds over the VLN distance at the Ring. Now, the Cayman S should be faster than the Aston, given the increase in power (around 50 PS), chassis improvments and bigger aero.

The oldfashioned Aston GT4 is lots of fun to driver though

DiscoColin

3,328 posts

213 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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Magic919 said:
It's the usual 'marketing' dry sump, but deeper (just like the aftermarket kits). That's my take.
"Integrated dry sump" is Porsche marketing speak for "not a dry sump, but we have tried to make it a bit better than a conventional wet one", and is how they describe the engine in the road cars in the brochure boilerplate. I would be very surprised if it differed significantly (mechanically) from the road car engine though the ECU isn't likely to be the same. People have been running PDK cars with 9A1 engines in the VLN in Germany and various lower tier series in the US for a few years now (Carreras and Caymans) so there is a reasonable expectation that if there is any issue it will be circuit specific rather than general. Also of course - if it does go bang and has essentially the mass produced road car engine core it will be a hell of a lot cheaper to replace. Indeed - won't a straight short engine replacement for a GT4 Cayman Clubsport actually be cheaper than the scheduled rebuilds on the Mezger engined Cup cars? Does anyone have comparative numbers?

lanan

814 posts

227 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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There is no way Porsche are going to produce a GT4 car running on slix with a wet sump.
Give the guys some credit....They've been at it a while

hunter 66

3,886 posts

219 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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NO I doubt a rebuild will be more than a replacement engine by a fair margin ..... anyway hard to tell cost wise as depends who rebuilds it and how the bottom end is seen to be at re-build ..... but from 15K GT3 I guess to 45 K for RSR ( Manthey ).......and anywhere in between
Joys of playing ....... then the tyre bill 4.5 K a weekend.....

ChrisW.

6,210 posts

254 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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Magic919 said:
It's the usual 'marketing' dry sump, but deeper (just like the aftermarket kits). That's my take.
Of course, no oil in a dry sump smile

Then a deeper oil tank ... though if the dry sump is doing the job, what is the gain in more oil ?

Steve Rance

5,435 posts

230 months

Tuesday 1st December 2015
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Top end rebuild were £3.5k and bottom end inc new barrels and Pistons £5-7k. I think that a 3.8L barrel and piston conversion kit is about £3.8k. Lifing for a cup Metz was circa 75-100 hours. If the leak down test was good, only a top end was needed. The Metz engine in cup form is not an expensive engine to run - as Hunter says, tyre budgets are a lot bigger. The RSR engines are much more expensive to run.

NAS90

146 posts

111 months

Wednesday 2nd December 2015
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Harris_I said:
Steve Rance said:
If I chose a downshift that will over rev the engine, I expect it to happen. I will not expect the gearbox software to over ride the shift. Race engines are regularly buzzed in the heat of racing. I used the box to lock the wheels of a 996 cup at Castle Coombe once during qualy to prevent a big shunt. The Motec showed a buz of well over 10,000rpm but the engine was fine (my point on the Metz engine Adam). Just needed a new clutch and we were out for the race. 100 hours later the engine was still winning races. If my gearbox would have prevented the downshift, I may well may not be here now.
NAS90 did something similar in a 996 Cup at the Dubai Autodrome a few years back. Brakes failed so he downshifted to lock the wheels and turned the car backwards to give himself a chance when he hit the barrier. I seem to recall the engine survived. He can fill in the details (unless PTSD has erased it from memory - he was doing over 250kph at the time).
I am trying to forget the cost more than the accident! the front left brake calliper fell off (mistake by a tired mechanic late the night before) and was hanging in the wheel as I came round the last turn onto the main straight, I heard a noise but thought nothing much of it (not a mistake i'll make again!) went for the brakes at 252kph on the data, with no brakes at all used 2nd gear to lock up the rear end and put it backwards into the wall, whole rear end of the body gone, chassis bent but engine & gearbox were fine and more importantly (to me anyway) I stepped out of the car with no injury at all)

I am in agreement completely that the driver needs to be able to control the gearbox regardless of the consequences to the engine/ transmission; lives have definitely been saved this way! not giving full control of a race car to the driver is not acceptable to me, even ABS & traction control can be turned on and off, so should any over rev prevention electronics.

Having said that I am a big fan of the Cayman chassis and would definitely consider one of these cars if they are homologated and competitive in GT4

fioran0

2,410 posts

171 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Apologies for being a little late to the party on this.... been away with work the last while.

The lap times for the GT4 clubsport put it roughly 2.5 seconds per minute slower than a Cup (997) according the info I have seen. This seems pretty much in line with design target for the car.
The car most definitely has an "integrated dry sump" i.e. a wet sump. The engine is as per the street car. The oil level sensor however is programmed to show a full oil level with a greater oil capacity than the road version.

It comes with a mobile phone bracket....!!!!

I'm not following some of the homologation comments. Homologation simply means meeting the race technical criteria for a given series.
The concept of race series requiring road going versions sharing many parts to see them homologated, something that many people seem to hold (from the old rally days i expect) isn't quite where things are generally at and haven't been for a while. Racing typically needs the shell and thats it these days. The gap between race cars and road cars is now so wide at the pro level that its impossible to do much more. And thats before you get to waivers!!!

Gear box is production line PDK with one gear disabled and some different software. No idea yet what "different" means.

And that leads nicely into cost expectations. The gearbox and engine will be exchange items. No rebuilds. Going from past street engines versus a typical Cup engine rebuild it could be (and I am purely guessing). $20k v $25k when the time comes. Time will tell how run hours compare. I expect there will be some difference in allocated hours there when the cars are new to the benefit of the GT4. The Cups have a very aggressive engine time out when running at the top level.
Gearbox will be an exchange unit. No idea on that. You could save some, you may spend more. Again run hours will be the big question.

Those focusing on those items are missing the big picture when it comes to racing cars. Tyre budgets are significant. Damage comes in at a significant cost - and the new cars don't repair that well from damage so far due to construction changes so it may well be re-shells a plenty as a result of shunts. Heck towing, crew and food/travel/accomodation mount up significantly as does race fees when you look over where your budget went to. In all these aspects this car isn't going to be much cheaper to run than a Cup when it comes down to it. What that means is assuming that you run it for 2 years without any damage or mechanical misfortune, run a handful of races in each year and get good resale on the car at the end of your 2 years to claw back some outlay, its likely to have been a minimum £200k experience.

And that leads nicely to the intended target audience for this car. Make no mistake, this car is intended as a gateway drug for individuals with serious bank balance, to get them involved with the Porsche Motorsport product line and factory built cars. From there it's a move on into Cups and then up to GT3R etc medium - long term.
There are more serious Cayman race cars around than this car, including spec racers in the club racing realm, but these are all privately built. This means the cars are out of the reach of the factory cash register and the drivers generally out of the lure of the factory motorsport programme.
Porsche know exactly what they are doing with this car, and who its intended market is. The minimum race requirement and spares package required for this car makes it an expensive opportunity. Running costs will be almost up there with a full Cup, but for a car that is much slower.
This is an entry level car but its is most assuredly not at an entry level price point when it comes to using it. The folks using this will need to have the money to run much more serious cars, which is entirely the point.


Edited by fioran0 on Friday 4th December 01:21

ChrisW.

6,210 posts

254 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Very interesting.

It will be great to see the cars running --- and interesting to see what Porsche do with them --- assuming that they will choose fairly carefully where they go ---

bigmowley

1,875 posts

175 months

Saturday 5th December 2015
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fioran0 said:
Apologies for being a little late to the party on this.... been away with work the last while.

The lap times for the GT4 clubsport put it roughly 2.5 seconds per minute slower than a Cup (997) according the info I have seen. This seems pretty much in line with design target for the car.
The car most definitely has an "integrated dry sump" i.e. a wet sump. The engine is as per the street car. The oil level sensor however is programmed to show a full oil level with a greater oil capacity than the road version.

It comes with a mobile phone bracket....!!!!

I'm not following some of the homologation comments. Homologation simply means meeting the race technical criteria for a given series.
The concept of race series requiring road going versions sharing many parts to see them homologated, something that many people seem to hold (from the old rally days i expect) isn't quite where things are generally at and haven't been for a while. Racing typically needs the shell and thats it these days. The gap between race cars and road cars is now so wide at the pro level that its impossible to do much more. And thats before you get to waivers!!!

Gear box is production line PDK with one gear disabled and some different software. No idea yet what "different" means.

And that leads nicely into cost expectations. The gearbox and engine will be exchange items. No rebuilds. Going from past street engines versus a typical Cup engine rebuild it could be (and I am purely guessing). $20k v $25k when the time comes. Time will tell how run hours compare. I expect there will be some difference in allocated hours there when the cars are new to the benefit of the GT4. The Cups have a very aggressive engine time out when running at the top level.
Gearbox will be an exchange unit. No idea on that. You could save some, you may spend more. Again run hours will be the big question.

Those focusing on those items are missing the big picture when it comes to racing cars. Tyre budgets are significant. Damage comes in at a significant cost - and the new cars don't repair that well from damage so far due to construction changes so it may well be re-shells a plenty as a result of shunts. Heck towing, crew and food/travel/accomodation mount up significantly as does race fees when you look over where your budget went to. In all these aspects this car isn't going to be much cheaper to run than a Cup when it comes down to it. What that means is assuming that you run it for 2 years without any damage or mechanical misfortune, run a handful of races in each year and get good resale on the car at the end of your 2 years to claw back some outlay, its likely to have been a minimum £200k experience.

And that leads nicely to the intended target audience for this car. Make no mistake, this car is intended as a gateway drug for individuals with serious bank balance, to get them involved with the Porsche Motorsport product line and factory built cars. From there it's a move on into Cups and then up to GT3R etc medium - long term.
There are more serious Cayman race cars around than this car, including spec racers in the club racing realm, but these are all privately built. This means the cars are out of the reach of the factory cash register and the drivers generally out of the lure of the factory motorsport programme.
Porsche know exactly what they are doing with this car, and who its intended market is. The minimum race requirement and spares package required for this car makes it an expensive opportunity. Running costs will be almost up there with a full Cup, but for a car that is much slower.
This is an entry level car but its is most assuredly not at an entry level price point when it comes to using it. The folks using this will need to have the money to run much more serious cars, which is entirely the point.


Edited by fioran0 on Friday 4th December 01:21
Agree with the overall sentiment entirely but not some of the details.

As far as cost goes then the Clubsport will be a magnitude of cost lower than a GT3 class car. It goes without saying that transport costs, entry fees, team costs etc are on a par. However from that point you can move the decimal point across one to the left. Parts prices on full house GT3 cars are stratospheric especially anything made of carbon, a full aero package on say a Maclaren GT3 would pay for a Clubsport outright. These cars also "update" regularly.
Mechanically the Clubsport is a breeze. The PDK box is as you say off the shelf and simple in out job at half the price of a full sequential rebuild. The engine is easily rebuildable if required, its only a 3.8S engine when all said and done, but equally a new full unit is reasonable, about £12K last time I priced one for a 911.
It does help any accident repair bills when the basic car is a fairly cheap road car rather than a piece of exotica!

"It comes with a mobile phone bracket....!!!!" .......... Bloody brilliant saves us fitting one, its a vital accessory for an endurance car, especially at the ring 24hrs or similar when the driver might need instruction on how to get it back to the pits or to explain where he is.


Steve Rance

5,435 posts

230 months

Saturday 5th December 2015
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I think that the OP is referring to a 996/7 cup car which is a very different proposition in terms of running costs to a FIA GT3 class car. I have run cup cars very successfuly on small budgets ( relatively speaking ). I think that Neil's post is pretty much spot on, although I still thank that there may be homologation changes ahead - the rear suspension set up is not currently ideal for example. The 997 cup is a car that if driven properly can punch well above its weight. Pound for pound, in terms of raw pace potential they are a cheap car to run.



Edited by Steve Rance on Saturday 5th December 12:35

bigmowley

1,875 posts

175 months

Saturday 5th December 2015
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I agree a classic Porsche GT can be carefully run on a sensible budget with a fair wind and some luck.
However the £200K figure mentioned in the post would be a full season in GT4 BGT rather than a bit of clubmans racing and in that context the car should be a good entry level proposition.

hunter 66

3,886 posts

219 months

Saturday 5th December 2015
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And there it is ..... a bit of bad luck can change things ... we had a bad season this year a bit wheel banging with another Fez GT3 and need for big carbon repairs ..
But we run ourselves ( Have done three 24 hours ) and you can reduce costs but to do well you need a pro team and tyres , so 15 k for those for the weekend .
But as they say you do not have to do it ,but it is addictive
missing your fix Steve ?