Buying unlisted equities in a SIPP

[foliedouce]

I want to buy some unlisted shares in my SIPP, however Suffolk Life my current SIPP provider don't allow this.

Can anyone recommend a provider that can? I've done a google and have a list but would prefer a recommendation.

Does anyone know how they value the shares? I'm keen to avoid too many costs.

Thanks

[PurpleMoonlight]

What sort of business are you looking to invest in?

If it's anything other than service business it will likely be impossible.

Where is your investment return going to be? Dividends to a SIPP are not very tax efficient.

[foliedouce]

It's my business (services)

Not a major amount cash wise / % of the business, but given the restriction of £10k per year max contributions into my SIPP, I am looking for a way of increasing the value of the pension pot. Currently £500k but I want to get it to £750k with a view that will grow to £1m by the age of 55

The shares are of low value now but we plan an event in in the next 36 months which will then have the benefit of bumping the pension pot up.

There will be some divis along the way

What are they not tax efficient though?

Any other ideas welcome, thanks.

[PurpleMoonlight]

They aren't tax efficient because dividends are net of corporation tax, and entrepreneurs relief is less than income tax on pensions.

If you established a SSAS and transfer your existing funds into it, you could potentially lend 50% of the fund to your Ltd over 5 years and pay 10% pa interest. You would need to check with your accountant that they are happy with that though, as arguably if you don't actually need the loan the interest is not a legitimate expense of the business.

[foliedouce]

Thanks, have looked at that but I'm making more than 10% on my funds right now and the business doesn't need the cash. Also set up fees where pretty high, I was quoted £38k plus VAT to do it (that was a SASS for 3 directors transferring in SIPP assets)

This isn't about getting cash into the business as the business doesn't need it, it's about working out how to increase my pension pot as I'm not allowed to pay more than £10k per year in.

Pension buys 250k shares now at say 8p (20k invested now from fund), on an event they are worth £1 (£250k fund increase for a £20k investment excluding divis). That seems like a good way to uplift the value of the fund to my untrained eye.

I hear what you're saying on divi's paid after Corporation Tax, but I can't offset anymore that I do against CT as I'm already at the max allowed (as far as pension is concerned)

[anonymous-user]

I am fairly sure that isn't allowed, unless that just my trustee firm.

Why are you only allowed to put in 10k?

[foliedouce]

desolate said:

I am fairly sure that isn't allowed, unless that just my trustee firm.

Why are you only allowed to put in 10k?

That's the most you're allowed to out into the pension without incurring a tax charge (so says Suffolk Life my provider). Changed quite recently (last year or so) as I was paying a lot more in before the law came out.

You can buy unlisted equities from a related party but only certain SIPP providers allow it.

[anonymous-user]

foliedouce said:

That's the most you're allowed to out into the pension without incurring a tax charge (so says Suffolk Life my provider). Changed quite recently (last year or so) as I was paying a lot more in before the law came out.

You can buy unlisted equities from a related party but only certain SIPP providers allow it.

OK - I presume the unlisted equities would have to be valued independently? (I'll be looking into this no doubt)

I am surprised at 10k max - presume that is linked to your current earnings or somesuch?

[PurpleMoonlight]

foliedouce said:

That's the most you're allowed to out into the pension without incurring a tax charge (so says Suffolk Life my provider). Changed quite recently (last year or so) as I was paying a lot more in before the law came out.

You can buy unlisted equities from a related party but only certain SIPP providers allow it.

It's because your income is over £210,000.

Lucky you.

[foliedouce]

desolate said:

OK - I presume the unlisted equities would have to be valued independently? (I'll be looking into this no doubt)

Yes, I am hoping to piggy back the valuation we have had done for our EMI scheme but need to check with the chosen SIPP provider this is acceptable.

[anonymous-user]

foliedouce said:

Yes, I am hoping to piggy back the valuation we have had done for our EMI scheme but need to check with the chosen SIPP provider this is acceptable.

Can you post if you get it through please? - would be very interesting for us.

[PurpleMoonlight]

I've been looking into this a bit this morning.

The SIPP providers that permit it seem to restrict the SIPP ownership to the Controlling Director definition, that is the SIPP and the Member (either alone or indirectly) cannot own more than 20% of the shares.

I'm not actually sure why they do that as, as far as I am aware, HMRC permit a pension arrangement to own 100% of shares.

It would be helpful if you could update the thread if you find someone willing to do it.

Oh, on the SSAS charge, someone was having a laugh. It should cost about £1500 plus VAT to establish and the same annually to run.