Probate / Inheritance - cost of Solicitors ??
Discussion
Trying to find out for my other half.
An estate that is relatively large but not overly complex: I’m talking 11 properties, mix of Home, second Home, commercial and Land; and 12 vehicles, plus assorted bits and bats.
All assets are accounted for. i.e there is no investigative work needed. All loan companies and bank accounts known. Vehicle Registrations and mileage’s are known, etc etc.
Overall value; perhaps 4 Million...
What ballpark figure will a solicitor charge for organising this / probate?
An estate that is relatively large but not overly complex: I’m talking 11 properties, mix of Home, second Home, commercial and Land; and 12 vehicles, plus assorted bits and bats.
All assets are accounted for. i.e there is no investigative work needed. All loan companies and bank accounts known. Vehicle Registrations and mileage’s are known, etc etc.
Overall value; perhaps 4 Million...
What ballpark figure will a solicitor charge for organising this / probate?
Applying for and receiving a grant of probate you can probably do yourself (if you have time and subject to the comments on paying the IHT bill below). There's a lot of info on the Which? website. https://www.which.co.uk/money/what-to-do-when-some...
Most of the costs of the solicitor will be time costs involved in doing things you could probably do yourself - e.g. obtain valuations on the property, cars etc. If the solicitor does it that's 11 lots of letters, phone calls etc. If you do it, it isnt. Ditto with the valuation on the cars (although presumably one valuer would do all of them whereas for the properties you may need multiple valuations if they are in different locations).
If you do most of the work and the estate is in good order then applying for the grant should. at a guess, not be more than about £10k + vat (roughly 30-40 hours work for a partner in a good provincial firm - a Society of Trusts and Estates Practitioners (STEP) member as the partner - search here:https://www.step.org/member-directory ). The law society guide is 0.75% for property and 1.5% for other assets, so it could be a lot more if they do everything. Avoid anyone who wants to charge you a fixed percentage, get a quote and review the assumptions in the quote to check they are reasonable. The disbursements will be considerable for the valuations etc and you are going to have a whacking IHT bill to pay - you will need to think carefully how you fund this. If you use a firm of solicitors and there arent liquid assets in the estate they should be able to source finance but it can be expensive - 1% a month isnt uncommon for probate loans. Depending on how the will is set up, who the beneficiaries are, whether you want to make changes (deed of variation), that's where the costs may be significant more but equally where the most value can be added. With an estate of that size, the tax planning opportunities may be significant if all of the beneficiaries can agree. Good luck!
Most of the costs of the solicitor will be time costs involved in doing things you could probably do yourself - e.g. obtain valuations on the property, cars etc. If the solicitor does it that's 11 lots of letters, phone calls etc. If you do it, it isnt. Ditto with the valuation on the cars (although presumably one valuer would do all of them whereas for the properties you may need multiple valuations if they are in different locations).
If you do most of the work and the estate is in good order then applying for the grant should. at a guess, not be more than about £10k + vat (roughly 30-40 hours work for a partner in a good provincial firm - a Society of Trusts and Estates Practitioners (STEP) member as the partner - search here:https://www.step.org/member-directory ). The law society guide is 0.75% for property and 1.5% for other assets, so it could be a lot more if they do everything. Avoid anyone who wants to charge you a fixed percentage, get a quote and review the assumptions in the quote to check they are reasonable. The disbursements will be considerable for the valuations etc and you are going to have a whacking IHT bill to pay - you will need to think carefully how you fund this. If you use a firm of solicitors and there arent liquid assets in the estate they should be able to source finance but it can be expensive - 1% a month isnt uncommon for probate loans. Depending on how the will is set up, who the beneficiaries are, whether you want to make changes (deed of variation), that's where the costs may be significant more but equally where the most value can be added. With an estate of that size, the tax planning opportunities may be significant if all of the beneficiaries can agree. Good luck!
Willia68; I want to thank you for your response. I truly appreciate the help and some ballpark figures. Thank you.
Since writing my original post; we’ve delved deeper. Because the will was made a long time ago; the executor was a solicitor at the firm that also seems to assume that we will use them.
We have asked the honest question; which is... if we want to go with another firm who will be cheaper AND if we want the solicitor, who is executor, to stand down as executor; can we do that... the executor has gotten quite nasty - and (possibly assuming that my partner is naive) has said that we must use him and his firm! Which I believe to be absolute b
ks. And the fact he’s said that, makes us want to not have anything to do with them.
£300 per hour is their rate; with no breakdown of assumptions and potential work load - given that we’ve said we WILL arrange RICS valuations ourselves and get other assets listed and valued... not sure what they’ll be doing other than filing the HMRC ‘stuff’ which my accountant will do for a fraction of the price.
Can the beneficiaries request that an executor (appointed many years ago) stand down? Why would the executor in that situation refuse to??
Since writing my original post; we’ve delved deeper. Because the will was made a long time ago; the executor was a solicitor at the firm that also seems to assume that we will use them.
We have asked the honest question; which is... if we want to go with another firm who will be cheaper AND if we want the solicitor, who is executor, to stand down as executor; can we do that... the executor has gotten quite nasty - and (possibly assuming that my partner is naive) has said that we must use him and his firm! Which I believe to be absolute b
ks. And the fact he’s said that, makes us want to not have anything to do with them.£300 per hour is their rate; with no breakdown of assumptions and potential work load - given that we’ve said we WILL arrange RICS valuations ourselves and get other assets listed and valued... not sure what they’ll be doing other than filing the HMRC ‘stuff’ which my accountant will do for a fraction of the price.
Can the beneficiaries request that an executor (appointed many years ago) stand down? Why would the executor in that situation refuse to??
The Leaper said:
After the death of the person who wrote the will, an executor can only be removed via Court proceedings.
Before death, removal can be achieved simply by writing a new will or adding a codicil to an existing will.
R.
Thank you. So the executor cannot be removed other than via Court? Is there no discretion on the executors part - in as much as; the beneficiaries are all on the same page and happy with the will; there’s nobody waiting in the wings to cause any hassle or the like. Why would the executor not stand down if he knew that the will is to be honoured. I know that the executor is basically acting for the estate / and not the beneficiaries. Before death, removal can be achieved simply by writing a new will or adding a codicil to an existing will.
R.
It’s just that in this case; the executor needs to sign off on things and play a part in a few processes along the way; and this particular chap is never about - he’s on holidays / breaks and is generally not very helpful.
He’s also insisted we use his firm for the legal work / HMRC stuff - which I find offputting. He’s not offered up any other options and when pressed has simply said his firm must be used.
You are underestimating the legal responsibilities of the executor. Also, as it's a firm of solicitors they will be well aware of their strong position and the seriousness of having them replaced through the Courts. Of course, any executor can resign at any time but it looks like this is not going to happen easily in your case.
R.
R.
The Leaper said:
You are underestimating the legal responsibilities of the executor. Also, as it's a firm of solicitors they will be well aware of their strong position and the seriousness of having them replaced through the Courts. Of course, any executor can resign at any time but it looks like this is not going to happen easily in your case.
R.
Thank you; I feel that I'm getting a better understanding of this. But for this executor to insist that we use his firm; when we have a law firm that we use more often; is more effective and is cheaper - is wrong, no? Can he insist that we use his firm?R.
I assume the executor is a person not a firm, in you case solicitors. The will must be administered by the appointed executor unless he is removed or resigns. He can choose whatever firm he wishes to help him execute his responsibilities, so can you and the other beneficiaries appoint for example your own solicitors for advice (they will not be the executor), although you if you do appoint a second firm for advice there could be a conflict which could be costly.
R.
R.
It sounds like the deceased has amounted quite a bit of assets (estate). I take it that person is quite financially astute. If so, he/she has made the decision to use this specific executor knowing how costly their fees are. So this could be an experienced specifically judged decision.
The deceased may have had a long standing relation with the executor so the latter could be well placed to deal with the estate.
If the relationship with the executor turns sour then he may drag his feet dealing with the estate if he has to deal with another solicitor. This dragging of feet could cost just as much since the executor either gets to charge for his time or doesn't, in which case, time wasting will cost more for your newly appointed solicitor.
This behaviour could be construed as unprofessional but the executor is only human and is perfectly within his rights.
Just food for thought.
The deceased may have had a long standing relation with the executor so the latter could be well placed to deal with the estate.
If the relationship with the executor turns sour then he may drag his feet dealing with the estate if he has to deal with another solicitor. This dragging of feet could cost just as much since the executor either gets to charge for his time or doesn't, in which case, time wasting will cost more for your newly appointed solicitor.
This behaviour could be construed as unprofessional but the executor is only human and is perfectly within his rights.
Just food for thought.
Hmmm; it’s a tough one. It seems that there’s little wiggle room.
It’s news to me that the executor can choose any firm he / she wishes to... in this case; of course; he’s choosing his own firm. That’s news to me... as I’ve been told now that removing the executor can be difficult, unless they simply agree to stepping down - but that the beneficiaries can choose any firm they wish to complete probate and deal with HMRC etc. I do get the angle that it wouldn’t be necessarily the right decision given heel dragging and the inefficiency of the back and forth...
Is it true, then, that the executor can choose any firm he or she wishes? If so, I do find that bizarre.
It’s news to me that the executor can choose any firm he / she wishes to... in this case; of course; he’s choosing his own firm. That’s news to me... as I’ve been told now that removing the executor can be difficult, unless they simply agree to stepping down - but that the beneficiaries can choose any firm they wish to complete probate and deal with HMRC etc. I do get the angle that it wouldn’t be necessarily the right decision given heel dragging and the inefficiency of the back and forth...
Is it true, then, that the executor can choose any firm he or she wishes? If so, I do find that bizarre.
As far as I'm aware, it is true that the executor can choose any organisation he/she wishes to provide him/her with advice and services so that he/she can complete their responsibilities as executor. The organisation does not have to be a legal firm: many high street banks provide a full service, at a fee of course.
If you had been appointed the executor in this case then you would have exactly the same choice if you feel you needed to appoint an organisation for advice and services etc.
Note that I have been the executor several times for members of my and my wife's deceased family members. I have been able to do everything myself quite easily but whenever there has been property as an asset I have always appointed a legal firm to carry out the administration. This is because property has a volatile value and also family members can get emotional about it, and as executor I think it is best to keep emotions out of the administration process. Note that the process, although straightforward, is very time consuming and can take a long time to complete: the task should anyone decide to do it, should not be underestimated!
In you own case there seems to be quite a lot of value in the estate, mainly due to the property owned by the deceased. Based on what you have said about things, I am pretty sure that if I was the appointed executor I would be appointing a professional firm for advice, at least with the administration, probably for full services. Such advice does not come cheap but an executor cannot afford to screw up any matters because of the consequences for the family. It's critical that they know what the will states and that the instructions to the executor are delivered 100% by the executor.
R.
If you had been appointed the executor in this case then you would have exactly the same choice if you feel you needed to appoint an organisation for advice and services etc.
Note that I have been the executor several times for members of my and my wife's deceased family members. I have been able to do everything myself quite easily but whenever there has been property as an asset I have always appointed a legal firm to carry out the administration. This is because property has a volatile value and also family members can get emotional about it, and as executor I think it is best to keep emotions out of the administration process. Note that the process, although straightforward, is very time consuming and can take a long time to complete: the task should anyone decide to do it, should not be underestimated!
In you own case there seems to be quite a lot of value in the estate, mainly due to the property owned by the deceased. Based on what you have said about things, I am pretty sure that if I was the appointed executor I would be appointing a professional firm for advice, at least with the administration, probably for full services. Such advice does not come cheap but an executor cannot afford to screw up any matters because of the consequences for the family. It's critical that they know what the will states and that the instructions to the executor are delivered 100% by the executor.
R.
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