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I find it frustratingly difficult sometimes to get the message across that speed cameras have no real effect on road safety.
I try all the salient points (ie road deaths up, fines, rttm) but I am often met by a 'the law is the law' attitude.
Anyone else have this problem? People seem to forget the Poll Tax riots and CND protests.
I try all the salient points (ie road deaths up, fines, rttm) but I am often met by a 'the law is the law' attitude.
Anyone else have this problem? People seem to forget the Poll Tax riots and CND protests.
Its not about whether or not you get caught its about whether our roads are safer or not! 
parrot of doom said:
I find it frustratingly difficult sometimes to get the message across that speed cameras have no real effect on road safety.
.........
Anyone else have this problem?
No. I don't know anyone (among friends, colleagues and relatives) who thinks speed cameras are for anything other than revenue generation; strange considering that 80ish% of the population are supposedly in favour of them!
I think the more people that are needlessly prosecuted, the more that'll be converted against the policy. The tide of opinion will eventually turn.
Yesterday, my brother phoned me to say he was flashed by a gatso while on the A3 (50 limit). This will be his second speeding offence within 1 year of getting his license, and boy is he annoyed.
I may need to turn to you chaps for help!
smeggy said:
Yesterday, my brother phoned me to say he was flashed by a gatso while on the A3 (50 limit). This will be his second speeding offence within 1 year of getting his license, and boy is he annoyed.
I may need to turn to you chaps for help!
I regret to have to tell you that if he accumulates 6 points within 2 years of passing his test then he will be disqualified and will have to re-sit his test. Can't recall whether you just have to re-do just the practical or the whole theory/hazard perception/practical shooting match.
"The Law is the Law."
Indeed it is. But four points:
- if, as some suggest, this means the law is absolute, inviolable and must be upheld at all costs, do your friends rush off to hand themselves in at the nearest police station every time they creep over the limit a little? There is no gradation in speeding offences - 31 is just as illegal as 131.
- 12m drivers have been prosecuted for speeding offences since 1992. Nearly all of them using cameras. If - as is sometimes argued - law is the "crystalised prejudice of society", and half of driving society is breaking the law, should we be looking at the law itself rather than simply prosecuting those breaking it?
- do we want to live in a society where ALL laws are enforced without discretion ALL the time?
- there is a growing trend towards what one could call "compliance offences". When they are committed, nothing happens - a line is simply stepped over. But these compliance offences are now enforced with incredible zeal whilst, on occasions, real offences where someone is hurt are allowed to lapse because of "insufficient evidence."
Like most simple statements about complicated arguments, I suspect "the Law is the Law" needs a little bit of looking at...
Just my tuppence-worth.
>> Edited by MMC on Sunday 14th August 13:48
Indeed it is. But four points:
- if, as some suggest, this means the law is absolute, inviolable and must be upheld at all costs, do your friends rush off to hand themselves in at the nearest police station every time they creep over the limit a little? There is no gradation in speeding offences - 31 is just as illegal as 131.
- 12m drivers have been prosecuted for speeding offences since 1992. Nearly all of them using cameras. If - as is sometimes argued - law is the "crystalised prejudice of society", and half of driving society is breaking the law, should we be looking at the law itself rather than simply prosecuting those breaking it?
- do we want to live in a society where ALL laws are enforced without discretion ALL the time?
- there is a growing trend towards what one could call "compliance offences". When they are committed, nothing happens - a line is simply stepped over. But these compliance offences are now enforced with incredible zeal whilst, on occasions, real offences where someone is hurt are allowed to lapse because of "insufficient evidence."
Like most simple statements about complicated arguments, I suspect "the Law is the Law" needs a little bit of looking at...
Just my tuppence-worth.
>> Edited by MMC on Sunday 14th August 13:48
MMC said:And these 'compliance offences' are a mammoth step towards a 1984 world...
there is a growing trend towards what one could call "compliance offences". When they are committed, nothing happens - a line is simply stepped over. But these compliance offences are now enforced with incredible zeal
CommanderJameson said:
I regret to have to tell you that if he accumulates 6 points within 2 years of passing his test then he will be disqualified and will have to re-sit his test. Can't recall whether you just have to re-do just the practical or the whole theory/hazard perception/practical shooting match.
Not strictly disqualified, as there is no period of disqualification per se, he can get his licence back as quickly as he can re-pass his tests (yes; theory/HP and practical), of course where I live this would be at minimum a period of about three months (could be reduced to just over one by spending all day on the phone to the DSA trying to get a cancellation.)
parrot of doom said:
I find it frustratingly difficult sometimes to get the message across that speed cameras have no real effect on road safety.
I try all the salient points (ie road deaths up, fines, rttm) but I am often met by a 'the law is the law' attitude.
Anyone else have this problem? People seem to forget the Poll Tax riots and CND protests.
Liebchen - you are mixing mit too many of the militant muesli munching cycling brigade
I meet very very few who think the scams are bees knees. Met one lady on holiday - she was Welsh und having problem mit langauge - so I helper her out. We chatted as you do ...und she remarked about the speed boats on the Italian Lake ...we were at Sirmione und they have speeeddy
boats there. 
She went off on one about this .. und I asked if she had ever been in one und would she like to try one mit mir as am bit used to speedy things . She then started to sing Dick's praises for some reason und said children were being killed all the time. My little boy (aged 7) piped up that he did not see any children walking on water in the Lake und that ist question of using the Green Cross Code und waiting patiently to cross. Und then 
he asked her if she could drive... und when she said no - my little 7 year old rolls his eyes und looked just like his Papa und went "Wimmin non drivers - that figures.. >> Edited by WildCat on Monday 15th August 12:40
WildCat said:
I find it frustratingly difficult sometimes to get the message across that speed cameras have no real effect on road safety.
I try all the salient points (ie road deaths up, fines, rttm) but I am often met by a 'the law is the law' attitude.
Anyone else have this problem? People seem to forget the Poll Tax riots and CND protests.
Liebchen - you are mixing mit too many of the militant muesli munching cycling brigade
I meet very very few who think the scams are bees knees. Met one lady on holiday - she was Welsh und having problem mit langauge - so I helper her out. We chatted as you do ...und she remarked about the speed boats on the Italian Lake ...we were at Sirmione und they have speeeddy
>> Edited by WildCat on Monday 15th August 12:40
This sums it up really. People talking out of their chuff.
Like many of the "here today gone tomorrow" camera supporters who occasionally visit this site (many suspected to be the same person).
Einion Yrth said:
I regret to have to tell you that if he accumulates 6 points within 2 years of passing his test then he will be disqualified and will have to re-sit his test. Can't recall whether you just have to re-do just the practical or the whole theory/hazard perception/practical shooting match.
Not strictly disqualified, as there is no period of disqualification per se, he can get his licence back as quickly as he can re-pass his tests (yes; theory/HP and practical), of course where I live this would be at minimum a period of about three months (could be reduced to just over one by spending all day on the phone to the DSA trying to get a cancellation.)
Thanks for the clarification; it's an important distinction.
"The Law is the Law."
The tact I use is to point out the law is not law number of examples but two main ones
1) The police selective choose which laws to enforce, always have and alwasy will (correct and proper). If they didn't they would be launching 6am raids on every house for copyright law enfrigement. Drug policy is another good example, as is the 10%+2mph guidelines. The choice was generally made by responding to public concerns but is now made by the lasted breed of "bend over" chief constables to please their political masters.
2)The law is not black and white it requires intrepation. This is a fundemental point in the system and is one of the primary roles of judges. Laws can not be prescriptive and are not intended to be so.
2)
The tact I use is to point out the law is not law number of examples but two main ones
1) The police selective choose which laws to enforce, always have and alwasy will (correct and proper). If they didn't they would be launching 6am raids on every house for copyright law enfrigement. Drug policy is another good example, as is the 10%+2mph guidelines. The choice was generally made by responding to public concerns but is now made by the lasted breed of "bend over" chief constables to please their political masters.
2)The law is not black and white it requires intrepation. This is a fundemental point in the system and is one of the primary roles of judges. Laws can not be prescriptive and are not intended to be so.
2)
If the law is the law, do they still practise their Archery on a Sunday?
As above, the law tends to be a flexible beast, has to be really, the draughtsman cannot envisage every situation that law will be applied to, and it is the role of the judge to apply reason to it (we hope).
Ask those who claim that Speed Kills if they drive at 60MPH in thick fog down twisty lanes.. If not, why not? After all, they are obeying the law............. Or, perhaps, just maybe, Innappropriate speed kills?!? Or more likely, lack of road awareness and hazard perception....
As above, the law tends to be a flexible beast, has to be really, the draughtsman cannot envisage every situation that law will be applied to, and it is the role of the judge to apply reason to it (we hope).
Ask those who claim that Speed Kills if they drive at 60MPH in thick fog down twisty lanes.. If not, why not? After all, they are obeying the law............. Or, perhaps, just maybe, Innappropriate speed kills?!? Or more likely, lack of road awareness and hazard perception....
When confronted by a member of the speed kills brigade this is what I say.
"Speed cameras have one function only. They photograph vehicles that have exceed a given limit. Since speed cameras were introduced the number of Traffic Police on our roads has declined. It is only by having properly trained experienced Traffic Officers can we hope to detect and prosecure careless drivers, dangerous drivers, drunk drivers, cars with mechnical defects and the like. It is because of people LIKE YOU who support speed cameras that Traffic Units are being disbanded. Little wonder our roads are not getting any safer."
"Speed cameras have one function only. They photograph vehicles that have exceed a given limit. Since speed cameras were introduced the number of Traffic Police on our roads has declined. It is only by having properly trained experienced Traffic Officers can we hope to detect and prosecure careless drivers, dangerous drivers, drunk drivers, cars with mechnical defects and the like. It is because of people LIKE YOU who support speed cameras that Traffic Units are being disbanded. Little wonder our roads are not getting any safer."
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