Small claims for a misrepresentation of car

[mrsmac17]

The initial message was deleted from this topic on 07 July 2023 at 19:05

[s94wht]

mrsmac17 said:

Court action for faulty private sale

Here goes
I put an advert on marketplace to sell my sons car
Volvo c30 r design, 79k miles, full service history, leather seats, 2 keys mot til dec, 2009 model very basic !
A lady and her husband came to view, my husband told them we had a fault with the car and just back from the garage 3 days prior, he told them all he knew and said he couldn’t tell them what had been replaced as we’ve not had the invoice yet, the husband test drove the car and inspected it,
Was happy with the car, and got a family member to transfer the money to my son also gave me there email address so I could forward invoice on to them for there records
Fast forward 16 days I sent invoice within 45 mins a demand for a full refund was made and wanted it in 4 days, as there was a fault with the car, apparently this fault happened on there drive home when they got the car
There saying we never told them about a previous fault and that it had been in the garage
2 days later they sent me a fault code read of a suspected egr valve and turbo needs replacement
On our invoice we have the valve replaced so this makes it a faulty turbo , this wasn’t faulty when we had it
I’ve told them the garage will replace the valve under parts warranty if deemed faulty
My son has now had a small claims through the post
What are our chances of winning this

Car was sold as seen and they've had it over a fortnight. Block their contact details and move on. Wouldn't have thought they have a leg to stand on.

[mrsmac17]

My son has had a court letter through the post, we’ve defended the whole claim , they now want mediation

[samoht]

Common issue, have you read the sticky thread, may be some useful points there
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Broadly "saying we never told them about a previous fault" doesn't constitute misrepresentation, even if true. It would only be misrepresentation if they asked 'has it needed any work recently?' and you said no, never. Ie you would have to have made a positive statement which was untrue, not merely failed to mention something they hadn't asked about.

I would put it to them something like "Misrepresentation means if I told you something about the car which was untrue. Please could you show me evidence of the untrue statement I made about this car?"

[ingenieur]

If it's a private sale and you're not a trader dealing cars from a forecourt what exactly is the claim?

A private sale of a car does not really provide a strong foothold for legal action if you figure out 2 weeks after the sale that you felt there was some dishonesty during the sale.

If it is a real genuine claim in the small claims court you must attend so you can explain your side of the story. If you don't then the decision is quite likely to go against you.

I would say there's unlikely any problem with the turbocharger because they hardly ever fail on modern cars so it is going to take a lot of proof on their side to make a convincing argument. Now with so much time having passed I don't even see how they could claim the car is in the same condition you sold it to them.

I guess they would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you've been deliberately dishonest but it would be so difficult to do that. If I were the judge I wouldn't stand for any of this nonsense. Second hand car deals between private buyers where there is no warranty etc is famously 'buyer beware'.

[Taz1111]

Don't ignore but do just say you described the car to best of your ability. You're not a mechanic or a car dealer.

It took the buyer 2 weeks to make a complaint for a fault that, apparently, appeared immediately?

Way to throw away money!

[mrsmac17]

Thanks for your reply’s
I will attend meditation on behalf of my son as he ain’t got a clue what to do,
There saying it’s gonna cost in excess of 2k to fix

Edited by mrsmac17 on Thursday 15th June 12:10

[CrippsCorner]

ingenieur said:

I would say there's unlikely any problem with the turbocharger because they hardly ever fail on modern cars so it is going to take a lot of proof on their side to make a convincing argument.

This isn't true I'm afraid. The turbo failed on my Astra (2010) actually I got the car about a grand cheaper than book price, and it cost me about a grand to sort out.. so was okay with it.

Either way, I wouldn't say they stand a chance personally, as I see quoted a lot on here... "caveat emptor"

[ingenieur]

CrippsCorner said:

ingenieur said:

I would say there's unlikely any problem with the turbocharger because they hardly ever fail on modern cars so it is going to take a lot of proof on their side to make a convincing argument.

This isn't true I'm afraid. The turbo failed on my Astra (2010) actually I got the car about a grand cheaper than book price, and it cost me about a grand to sort out.. so was okay with it.

Either way, I wouldn't say they stand a chance personally, as I see quoted a lot on here... "caveat emptor"

Take it in the context of turbocharged cars of the 80s and 90s when blaming a turbocharger for noises, leaks, smoke and power issues was a lot more reasonable. By comparison these days... you can drive a more modern diesel with a turbocharger spinning its nuts off for 150,000 miles no problem. In the early days of turbocharging (on everyday production cars) failures were far more common. These days in parts of the country where little TD hatchbacks are the most popular cars it's quite reasonable to claim turbochargers aren't always on the cusp of failure as nearly every car has one.

[Sir Bagalot]

mrsmac17 said:

Thanks for your reply’s
I will attend meditation on behalf of my son as he ain’t got a clue what to do,
There saying it’s gonna cost in excess of 2k to fix

Edited by mrsmac17 on Thursday 15th June 12:10

Mediation is done over the phone.

You just need to remember that

Buyers were advised it recently had a repair, for what you didn't know, but it was agreed a copy of the invoice would be forwarded, which it was.
The car was sold in good faith.
You're not a mechanic or car dealer and the buyers would be expected to make their own check.
No detailed problems were reported, nor a letter before action received.
It's a 14 year old car

I honestly can't see this getting far.
Don't make any offers to them. As far as you're concerned the car is sold.

[geeks]

s94wht said:

Car was sold as seen and they've had it over a fortnight. Block their contact details and move on. Wouldn't have thought they have a leg to stand on.

This is completely incorrect and a quick google or search on here would show just how utterly completely wrong you are!

OP follow the good advice on here, remember to be factual, while you can and before hand write down everything you can remember in bullet points from the purchase and subsequent dealings and keep them to hand when you are on the phone. I personally would be pushing for them to be told to hit the bricks and staying factual will help with that.

[coldel]

geeks said:

s94wht said:

Car was sold as seen and they've had it over a fortnight. Block their contact details and move on. Wouldn't have thought they have a leg to stand on.

This is completely incorrect and a quick google or search on here would show just how utterly completely wrong you are!

OP follow the good advice on here, remember to be factual, while you can and before hand write down everything you can remember in bullet points from the purchase and subsequent dealings and keep them to hand when you are on the phone. I personally would be pushing for them to be told to hit the bricks and staying factual will help with that.

Yes dont listen to that post about ignoring it. That wont look good at all. CRA2015 does contain detail about private sales and misrepresentation is a part of this legislation.

If you have informed them of something that transpires to be incorrect then you are in breach. Even on a private sale. Sold as seen doesn't mean anything. This can be information you gave both verbally and in written format.

You say in your post that 'There saying we never told them about a previous fault and that it had been in the garage' - you are not actually legally obliged to give this information at all. You can if you wish, sell a car by saying 'car for sale' and nothing else and if someone buys it, then thats on them.

Witholding information is not something that makes you liable for the fault, the onus is on them to ask all the right questions and if you answer with something you know to be incorrect then you are liable.

[mrsmac17]

Thanks for all your info, let’s see what they say in mediation🤣 nothing on my end changes , no refund

[Taz1111]

mrsmac17 said:

Thanks for all your info, let’s see what they say in mediation?? nothing on my end changes , no refund

I don't understand going to mediation. I opened a case against a dealer who won't refund me a £200 deposit (legally standing, with no contract, I have a year to get it back). They refuse to refund but wanted to go to mediation?

I suspect the buyer of your car will just request less after mediation. You shouldn't be paying anything. So there is nothing you can gain from attending, imo.

[Sir Bagalot]

Taz1111 said:

mrsmac17 said:

Thanks for all your info, let’s see what they say in mediation?? nothing on my end changes , no refund

I don't understand going to mediation. I opened a case against a dealer who won't refund me a £200 deposit (legally standing, with no contract, I have a year to get it back). They refuse to refund but wanted to go to mediation?

I suspect the buyer of your car will just request less after mediation. You shouldn't be paying anything. So there is nothing you can gain from attending, imo.

Small claims offer it and it's frowned upon if you don't accept it.

For those that haven't done it someone will call you up, and the third party, then go between you and the third party discussing the case. You'll be on separate lines so you can't hear the third party. I've done it twice, the first we came to an agreement, the second where the bd tradesman continues to deny any wrongdoing so will progress to court

[steveo3002]

it had been in a registered garage a few days before sale for repairs , you have the invoice showing you had it repaired and was working at that time , what more can you do?

[Panamax]

mrsmac17 said:

my husband told them we had a fault with the car and just back from the garage 3 days prior, he told them all he knew and said he couldn’t tell them what had been replaced as we’ve not had the invoice yet

That sounds rather unusual to me.

How was the "fault" described to the buyer?

What was the "invoice" sent a few days later and what did it say?

[twokcc]

Taz1111 said:

mrsmac17 said:

Thanks for all your info, let’s see what they say in mediation?? nothing on my end changes , no refund

I don't understand going to mediation. I opened a case against a dealer who won't refund me a £200 deposit (legally standing, with no contract, I have a year to get it back). They refuse to refund but wanted to go to mediation?

I suspect the buyer of your car will just request less after mediation. You shouldn't be paying anything. So there is nothing you can gain from attending, imo.

I have taken small claims out and attended court both as a private individual and in my company position but many years ago. No experience of meditation but based on my old experience I would not have accepted meditation on what appears to be a clear cut case that you do not have any liability.
I have read the small claims guidance which states "be willing to compromise". If what you have stated are the full facts I cannot see why you should compromise. From my understanding you only get details of the other parties claim thro the mediator, so you have no prior knowledge of the argumenta present to the mediator. They could have had the car independently examined by an expert and this could be why they didn't contact you until 14 days after sale. Very difficult to deal with this and I could see buyers throwing lots of red herrings into claim. Why did the son not deal with the buyers( presume he lives at your residence)- was it because he was aware of faults that he had not told you about. Had you given the the buyer details from the invoice would this had made them more wary of buying.
All supposition but if left to court hearing other party would have to provide full details of claim which you could respond to as mentioned by other posters above.
If mediator pushes for a comprise you are in a worse position than it going to court.

As I say I have no experience of mediation perhaps other PH's have and will hopefully contribute to the post- Having accepted mediation it would appear that you do not get the option to change your mind- p son will have to be at home on mediation day so you can all contribute to the defense. Good luck

[Richard-390a0]

I see Plain Jane is back trolling again as I thought this story (mum selling on behalf of child) sounded familiar...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Taz1111]

Sir Bagalot said:

Small claims offer it and it's frowned upon if you don't accept it.

For those that haven't done it someone will call you up, and the third party, then go between you and the third party discussing the case. You'll be on separate lines so you can't hear the third party. I've done it twice, the first we came to an agreement, the second where the bd tradesman continues to deny any wrongdoing so will progress to court

Frowned upon by who? The court isn't going to overrule the law, which allows 14 days to get a refund for DSR cars, or 1 year if no contract exists.

The car was advertised on the wrong mileage, only found out after he had it MOTed. The dealer rejects my request for a refund on both fronts.

I'd go to mediation say, I buy a car which is faulty, I get it repaired myself and try get the full amount back. In that case, mediation might work, as we'd both meet in the middle. Meeting in the middle when a refund is legally due is stupid.