Juristiction on Private Roads
Discussion
On our industrial estate the access road is "unadopted" and maintained etc by a gentlemans agreement between the freeholders of the units of which I am one. We had an incident today which meant that local plod were on the road dealing with some local toe rags when I drove down it to the factory, mr plod then came over to me and gave me a bollocking about my speed, I was in a rush and not feeling arguementative so just nodded smiled said ok and walked off, however in hindsight I do actually own the road or a percentage of it at least so does he have any right to bollock me?
tommofocus said:
Section 190 RTA - A Road is :- 'any highway and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes'
Even though you own the road the Police Police it.
Came across this one a few years ago, working for the Council, in relation to enforceability of speed limits in a Council owned car park.
Legal advice was that as a general rule-of-thumb it ceases to be a 'public' road under the definition of the Road Traffic Act if you have to negotiate an obvious gate or barrier to gain entry from an adopted public highway.
However, we use a lot of private roads when building housing estates (owned and maintained by management companies, to avoid some of the more onerous design & construction standards applied on 'adopted' roads).
The rule there is that the road must be closed (by means of barriers) at least once a year to prevent 'public' access becoming an established right. On this type of road, I think the law is less clear - it might be open to public access 364 days a year, but the fact that it is closed for the other one day might make it fail the 'road to which the public has access' test of the Road Traffic Act. I'm not aware of this situation being tested in law, though, so I don't think there's a definitive ruling.
Not as simple as stated.
Are there any signs which preclude any other than the residents using i.e. Private Road, Access resident Only?. If so could well not be a road.
If none and public have full access then could be classed as a road and public place. Any doubt is a matter of fact for beaks to decide but would need an offence/accused before them.
What about about street lighting - present? Could make a "restricted road" and 30 mph. If none then an Order would be required for a speed restriction and as far as I am aware LA do not make Orders for unadopted roads.
What signs up regarding speed?
May have given a warning as to speed from the safety aspect as opposed to out and out speeding offence.
dvd
An un adopted road generally is not repairable at public expense to can be used without Excise Licence - but you need one to get there.
Are there any signs which preclude any other than the residents using i.e. Private Road, Access resident Only?. If so could well not be a road.
If none and public have full access then could be classed as a road and public place. Any doubt is a matter of fact for beaks to decide but would need an offence/accused before them.
What about about street lighting - present? Could make a "restricted road" and 30 mph. If none then an Order would be required for a speed restriction and as far as I am aware LA do not make Orders for unadopted roads.
What signs up regarding speed?
May have given a warning as to speed from the safety aspect as opposed to out and out speeding offence.
dvd
An un adopted road generally is not repairable at public expense to can be used without Excise Licence - but you need one to get there.
Dwight VanDriver said:
Not as simple as stated.
Are there any signs which preclude any other than the residents using i.e. Private Road, Access resident Only?. If so could well not be a road.
If none and public have full access then could be classed as a road and public place. Any doubt is a matter of fact for beaks to decide but would need an offence/accused before them.
What about about street lighting - present? Could make a "restricted road" and 30 mph. If none then an Order would be required for a speed restriction and as far as I am aware LA do not make Orders for unadopted roads.
What signs up regarding speed?
May have given a warning as to speed from the safety aspect as opposed to out and out speeding offence.
dvd
An un adopted road generally is not repairable at public expense to can be used without Excise Licence - but you need one to get there.
The key phrase is 'public have full access'...which is why management companies have to go through the farce of a token, one-day road closure once a year.
If you haven't closed the road like this, at least once a year, it is possible for it to become a 'public place' by established use...this works in a similar way to 'adverse possession' in property law.
It is normal to mark the road name plates with 'private road', too, though I understand that this is not a strict legal requirement.
The advice from our legal specialists at the Council was that if the road (or in our case, car park) was made obviously non-public by means of a gate or barrier, any TRO was probably unenforceable in law, whether we liked it or not. From that point on I used to take great delight in winding up the wardens in our multi-storey by teararsing round the ramps at 30mph, in blatant disregard for the 5mph 'speed limit' signs, then asking to see a copy of the TRO when they tried to bollock me, knowing damn well that they didn't have one!
Shutting off a road for a day a year is a way of preventing the right of way becoming a public right; it does not mean that for 354 days a year it is not a public road.
The definitions are complicated, for example you can be done for careless driving in a Tescos car park.
In Oxford we have the St. Giles fair at the moment. The St Giles area is a large junction of 4 major roads but the land is owned by St. Johns College. Because it is an annual event the road is shut for 2 days a year and stops the local council from gaining ownership of the roads but they are major roads maintained by the Highways Authority. In the meantime the college gets 1/2 the revenue for the on street parking. A good bargain for them!
The definitions are complicated, for example you can be done for careless driving in a Tescos car park.
In Oxford we have the St. Giles fair at the moment. The St Giles area is a large junction of 4 major roads but the land is owned by St. Johns College. Because it is an annual event the road is shut for 2 days a year and stops the local council from gaining ownership of the roads but they are major roads maintained by the Highways Authority. In the meantime the college gets 1/2 the revenue for the on street parking. A good bargain for them!
pals4 said:
Shutting off a road for a day a year is a way of preventing the right of way becoming a public right; it does not mean that for 354 days a year it is not a public road.
The definitions are complicated, for example you can be done for careless driving in a Tescos car park.
In Oxford we have the St. Giles fair at the moment. The St Giles area is a large junction of 4 major roads but the land is owned by St. Johns College. Because it is an annual event the road is shut for 2 days a year and stops the local council from gaining ownership of the roads but they are major roads maintained by the Highways Authority. In the meantime the college gets 1/2 the revenue for the on street parking. A good bargain for them!
I agree that the definitions are complicated.
But you can't get done for speedingin Tesco's car park, which is what this particular thread is about. Just as well, really, or we'd be treated to the spectacle of a 30mph procession around Silverstone at the British GP every year!
Also, for the record, local authorities do not own roads(indeed, councils would not accept the land if you offered it to them).
The land on which the road is built does not have to be in public ownership for the road to be public. It is merely rights of access which are seeded to the public if the road is not closed. This is not necessarily linked to maintenance, either - a road can be 'public' (ie. have established legal rights of access over it), without its maintenance being the responsibiity of the Local Authority. When you build a new road, you have to enter into a legal 'adoption agreement' for the Local Authority to take on responsibility for maintenance. They do not own the road (the land is either retained in the ownership of a management company, or split up amongst the properties it serves) and can quite easily refuse to accept even the responsibility for maintenance, if they feel that the road has not been built to an adequate standard.
tvrgit said:
DVD you're correct as usual except that local authority CAN make an order for privately maintained (albeit public-accessed roads, if they choose to do so.
Quite correct. What they can't do, conversely, is make a legally enforceable order for non-public access roads, even if those roads are publicly owned - hence the Local Authority which employed me being unable to enforce a speed limit in its own car parks! There are, aparently, plenty of Local Authorities who don't know this, though, and who have applied TRO's which are technically illegal and unenforceable in these situations.
>> Edited by Mutant Rat on Tuesday 6th September 22:24
tvrgit said:
DVD you're correct as usual except that local authority CAN make an order for privately maintained (albeit public-accessed) roads, if they choose to do so.
We learn every day. I was under the impression otherwise unless of course the Sec of State makes an Order to the contrary -like the M6 Toll Road. Wasn't aware that my back lane could have a Speed order put on it?
Any chance of charpter and verse?
dvd
Funnily enough the factory I work in, is on an unadopted road owned by the company, which also owns all the other units on the road. There is no barrier and the fork lifts go up and down the road with no tax, mot, number plate and some of the drivers (whilst they are trained by our insurance approved trainer to drive a fork truck) do not even have provisional licences.
I was going to suggest to the MD that this is all totally illegal, but no one wants to be bearer of bad news.
I was going to suggest to the MD that this is all totally illegal, but no one wants to be bearer of bad news.
Mutant Rat said:
This could be a great business oppertunity for cash strapped farmers assuming they could get round the lentilists, Health and safety jobsworths:- "Private toll road, go as fast as you like"
I believee this concept is generally known as a 'track day'.
Doh, beat me to it!
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