Solicitor to sue an Audi dealer
Discussion
I'm in dispute with an Audi dealership who are hell bent on trying to avoid their legal, contractual and moral obligations. I have now decided I will probably sue them for problems resulting from bad advice and workmanship. Anyone know a litigation solicitor who actually knows something about car mechanics? If they understand it will save a lot of time!
Thanks
Thanks
Absolutely would not buy another Audi. The reliability has been shocking and the dealer network customer service can only be described as abusive.
I think the product they have put out of the last 4 years has been garbage and so they know every person through the service door is going to be angry so they have developed their own defense mechanism.
Compare that to Porsche and it couldn’t be more different. When things go wrong they are all over the issue and no hesitation for a courtesy car.
Audi US know they have a problem and will proactively open a dispute for you. But, the dealers don’t care because they have issues with the Audi product and hold them accountable for the mess they are in. 3 dealers refused to fix my friends A6 under warranty because they have to take the headlining out. He has a known issue which has a service note out for and they refuse to fix it. He threatened to sue them and they gave him cash instead!
I think the product they have put out of the last 4 years has been garbage and so they know every person through the service door is going to be angry so they have developed their own defense mechanism.
Compare that to Porsche and it couldn’t be more different. When things go wrong they are all over the issue and no hesitation for a courtesy car.
Audi US know they have a problem and will proactively open a dispute for you. But, the dealers don’t care because they have issues with the Audi product and hold them accountable for the mess they are in. 3 dealers refused to fix my friends A6 under warranty because they have to take the headlining out. He has a known issue which has a service note out for and they refuse to fix it. He threatened to sue them and they gave him cash instead!
Litigation is an emotional and time consuming path and I have better things to do on both counts. HOWEVER, I have been very calm and reasonable and they haven't made a proper effort to resolve it so they have pissed me off. The claim will now be in excess of £5000 but less than £10,000. The scope of my original claim was scaled down to make it easier to settle but as they don't want to pay anything or do any rectification works I plan to include all the works, time, car hire, travel, and anything else legitimate.
I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
From watching some Audi youtube channels and my own experience, I can bet that the OP has been through the mill.
There are some serious quality issues with top end Audi Performance models and the evidence I have seen is that dealers will do very little work on fault finding other than plug in a diagnostic computer.
It appears many lack real mechanics and just have technicians, they seem to think a 2019 RS4 with 20k on the clock and has failing rocker arms (a weak point on some model years) its ok to say engine is toast 21k for a new motor in a box please.
Whereas a decent specialist can strip the engine find the issue and rebuild with Gen parts for more like 7-8k.
There are some serious quality issues with top end Audi Performance models and the evidence I have seen is that dealers will do very little work on fault finding other than plug in a diagnostic computer.
It appears many lack real mechanics and just have technicians, they seem to think a 2019 RS4 with 20k on the clock and has failing rocker arms (a weak point on some model years) its ok to say engine is toast 21k for a new motor in a box please.
Whereas a decent specialist can strip the engine find the issue and rebuild with Gen parts for more like 7-8k.
Not to sleuth but see your only other comment on here is about a 2009 S4 gearbox issue.
I’d be very surprised if you had any hope of a 15 year old car getting any contributions unless it was purchased approved used fairly recently.
Personally, I avoided so many Audis with DSG type gearboxes as I felt the risk of failure was too high for my liking - I’m sure others felt the same and therefore the used residuals were probably impacted, so you probably paid less for it as a small win. For similar reasons 2007ish bmw 2.0ds are cheaper, due to all the chain failures.
Ford had US lawsuits regarding their power shifts but think they were in a league of their own with that box.
If the issue is something they have allegedly fixed i guess there could be a further recourse. I know a friend who had a b8 S5 manual of same age- Audi fitted a new clutch and shortly after a related part failed and they put another clutch in for free without much fuss.
I’d be very surprised if you had any hope of a 15 year old car getting any contributions unless it was purchased approved used fairly recently.
Personally, I avoided so many Audis with DSG type gearboxes as I felt the risk of failure was too high for my liking - I’m sure others felt the same and therefore the used residuals were probably impacted, so you probably paid less for it as a small win. For similar reasons 2007ish bmw 2.0ds are cheaper, due to all the chain failures.
Ford had US lawsuits regarding their power shifts but think they were in a league of their own with that box.
If the issue is something they have allegedly fixed i guess there could be a further recourse. I know a friend who had a b8 S5 manual of same age- Audi fitted a new clutch and shortly after a related part failed and they put another clutch in for free without much fuss.
Edited by joropug on Monday 5th February 14:21
The previous owner had died and his wife was moving abroad so needed to sell. I was interested in buying but needed to get a handle on a gearbox fault warning light. She took the car into Audi to have it investigated. They did a diagnostic and vehicle health check.
Their diagnostic conclusion was ‘Drive position sensor electrical malfunction requires basic setting. Further work required’ They quoted £300 for that and and a further £1600 for various other works (including leaking rear diff seals) . As it said 'further work required' I rang them to discuss. I explained I was interested in buying but obviously wouldn't if there was a big gearbox problem. I specifically asked if the reset was the 'further work required' and would that cure the problem or would further work be required. She went away for a few minutes and then came back and said the reset would cure the problem. On that basis I bought the car with an appropriate allowance for the cost of all the works they had identified.
I took it in to have the gearbox fixed and it didn't work. They said gearbox has to be stripped and sensor replaced. Claimed the reset was just the first step in the process. Despite their message when you call saying 'all calls are recorded' they claim to not have the recording and therefore say there is nothing they can do about it. This G626 sensor is a known fault on these and from a conversation with an independent Audi specialist after I bought it, it was never going to work. They have done a number of them. Obviously I would not have bought the car with a potential major gearbox problem. I'd have asked the vendor to spend the £300 and see if it fixed it. The cheapest quote I have had to fix it is £2500. I think Audi's price was over 6000
They missed a number of things on the health check. Leaking rocker cover gaskets (which they had replaced one side 5/21 at 94520 miles the other side 2/20 at 90740), oil leak from vacuum pump, leaking oil cooler and sump gasket (resealed by them previously with what looks like bathroom sealant.), various bushes split in front suspension. They had replaced the leaking diff seals in July 2020.13 months and 4800 miles later they recorded on the MOT they were leaking again. The diff seals failed within their 2 year warranty period. The audi specialist tells me they have done a number of diff seals and now they always rebuild the drive shafts at the same time otherwise in their experience the seals always fail again. Given they failed less than 4800 miles after they were replaced the wear in the drive shafts should have been apparent even if the dealerships experience didn't tell them to overhaul the shafts.
There are other faults but I wouldn't have expected the dealership to find those as part of a health check.
Apart from the quality of work they have done, to my mind they had a duty of care in their advice and have failed to fulfil that.
Their diagnostic conclusion was ‘Drive position sensor electrical malfunction requires basic setting. Further work required’ They quoted £300 for that and and a further £1600 for various other works (including leaking rear diff seals) . As it said 'further work required' I rang them to discuss. I explained I was interested in buying but obviously wouldn't if there was a big gearbox problem. I specifically asked if the reset was the 'further work required' and would that cure the problem or would further work be required. She went away for a few minutes and then came back and said the reset would cure the problem. On that basis I bought the car with an appropriate allowance for the cost of all the works they had identified.
I took it in to have the gearbox fixed and it didn't work. They said gearbox has to be stripped and sensor replaced. Claimed the reset was just the first step in the process. Despite their message when you call saying 'all calls are recorded' they claim to not have the recording and therefore say there is nothing they can do about it. This G626 sensor is a known fault on these and from a conversation with an independent Audi specialist after I bought it, it was never going to work. They have done a number of them. Obviously I would not have bought the car with a potential major gearbox problem. I'd have asked the vendor to spend the £300 and see if it fixed it. The cheapest quote I have had to fix it is £2500. I think Audi's price was over 6000
They missed a number of things on the health check. Leaking rocker cover gaskets (which they had replaced one side 5/21 at 94520 miles the other side 2/20 at 90740), oil leak from vacuum pump, leaking oil cooler and sump gasket (resealed by them previously with what looks like bathroom sealant.), various bushes split in front suspension. They had replaced the leaking diff seals in July 2020.13 months and 4800 miles later they recorded on the MOT they were leaking again. The diff seals failed within their 2 year warranty period. The audi specialist tells me they have done a number of diff seals and now they always rebuild the drive shafts at the same time otherwise in their experience the seals always fail again. Given they failed less than 4800 miles after they were replaced the wear in the drive shafts should have been apparent even if the dealerships experience didn't tell them to overhaul the shafts.
There are other faults but I wouldn't have expected the dealership to find those as part of a health check.
Apart from the quality of work they have done, to my mind they had a duty of care in their advice and have failed to fulfil that.
davidcw58 said:
The previous owner had died and his wife was moving abroad so needed to sell. I was interested in buying but needed to get a handle on a gearbox fault warning light. She took the car into Audi to have it investigated. They did a diagnostic and vehicle health check.
Their diagnostic conclusion was ‘Drive position sensor electrical malfunction requires basic setting. Further work required’ They quoted £300 for that and and a further £1600 for various other works (including leaking rear diff seals) . As it said 'further work required' I rang them to discuss. I explained I was interested in buying but obviously wouldn't if there was a big gearbox problem. I specifically asked if the reset was the 'further work required' and would that cure the problem or would further work be required. She went away for a few minutes and then came back and said the reset would cure the problem. On that basis I bought the car with an appropriate allowance for the cost of all the works they had identified.
I took it in to have the gearbox fixed and it didn't work. They said gearbox has to be stripped and sensor replaced. Claimed the reset was just the first step in the process. Despite their message when you call saying 'all calls are recorded' they claim to not have the recording and therefore say there is nothing they can do about it. This G626 sensor is a known fault on these and from a conversation with an independent Audi specialist after I bought it, it was never going to work. They have done a number of them. Obviously I would not have bought the car with a potential major gearbox problem. I'd have asked the vendor to spend the £300 and see if it fixed it. The cheapest quote I have had to fix it is £2500. I think Audi's price was over 6000
They missed a number of things on the health check. Leaking rocker cover gaskets (which they had replaced one side 5/21 at 94520 miles the other side 2/20 at 90740), oil leak from vacuum pump, leaking oil cooler and sump gasket (resealed by them previously with what looks like bathroom sealant.), various bushes split in front suspension. They had replaced the leaking diff seals in July 2020.13 months and 4800 miles later they recorded on the MOT they were leaking again. The diff seals failed within their 2 year warranty period. The audi specialist tells me they have done a number of diff seals and now they always rebuild the drive shafts at the same time otherwise in their experience the seals always fail again. Given they failed less than 4800 miles after they were replaced the wear in the drive shafts should have been apparent even if the dealerships experience didn't tell them to overhaul the shafts.
There are other faults but I wouldn't have expected the dealership to find those as part of a health check.
Apart from the quality of work they have done, to my mind they had a duty of care in their advice and have failed to fulfil that.
Based on all that please dont bother to try to take them to court, firstly as you didnt pay for the pre sale inspection you dont have any form of contract with them but secondly its an old performance car that can be expensive when they go wrong. And they do go wrong.Their diagnostic conclusion was ‘Drive position sensor electrical malfunction requires basic setting. Further work required’ They quoted £300 for that and and a further £1600 for various other works (including leaking rear diff seals) . As it said 'further work required' I rang them to discuss. I explained I was interested in buying but obviously wouldn't if there was a big gearbox problem. I specifically asked if the reset was the 'further work required' and would that cure the problem or would further work be required. She went away for a few minutes and then came back and said the reset would cure the problem. On that basis I bought the car with an appropriate allowance for the cost of all the works they had identified.
I took it in to have the gearbox fixed and it didn't work. They said gearbox has to be stripped and sensor replaced. Claimed the reset was just the first step in the process. Despite their message when you call saying 'all calls are recorded' they claim to not have the recording and therefore say there is nothing they can do about it. This G626 sensor is a known fault on these and from a conversation with an independent Audi specialist after I bought it, it was never going to work. They have done a number of them. Obviously I would not have bought the car with a potential major gearbox problem. I'd have asked the vendor to spend the £300 and see if it fixed it. The cheapest quote I have had to fix it is £2500. I think Audi's price was over 6000
They missed a number of things on the health check. Leaking rocker cover gaskets (which they had replaced one side 5/21 at 94520 miles the other side 2/20 at 90740), oil leak from vacuum pump, leaking oil cooler and sump gasket (resealed by them previously with what looks like bathroom sealant.), various bushes split in front suspension. They had replaced the leaking diff seals in July 2020.13 months and 4800 miles later they recorded on the MOT they were leaking again. The diff seals failed within their 2 year warranty period. The audi specialist tells me they have done a number of diff seals and now they always rebuild the drive shafts at the same time otherwise in their experience the seals always fail again. Given they failed less than 4800 miles after they were replaced the wear in the drive shafts should have been apparent even if the dealerships experience didn't tell them to overhaul the shafts.
There are other faults but I wouldn't have expected the dealership to find those as part of a health check.
Apart from the quality of work they have done, to my mind they had a duty of care in their advice and have failed to fulfil that.
The phrase suck it up buttercup is what springs to mind, it was never going to be a cheap car to run so it sounds like you cant afford to run it and in that case you cant afford to sue the dealer as it could well go against you.
Very easy to run up fees fast. I'm usually pretty pragmatic but in this case I feel there is a principle. Maybe I won't win but i'm prepared to spend some money if I have to and take the chance. They probably think its quite an old Audi and if that's all he can afford to buy he wont pursue it. They are wrong.
davidcw58 said:
Litigation is an emotional and time consuming path and I have better things to do on both counts. HOWEVER, I have been very calm and reasonable and they haven't made a proper effort to resolve it so they have pissed me off. The claim will now be in excess of £5000 but less than £10,000. The scope of my original claim was scaled down to make it easier to settle but as they don't want to pay anything or do any rectification works I plan to include all the works, time, car hire, travel, and anything else legitimate.
I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
It's still called the small claims procedure.I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
If you're getting nowhere then just go to money claims online and file a claim, fees scale according to value of the claim but should be around £100. Keep it factual as per your description above. Nothing to lose imho.
Based on all that please dont bother to try to take them to court, firstly as you didnt pay for the pre sale inspection you dont have any form of contract with them but secondly its an old performance car that can be expensive when they go wrong. And they do go wrong.
Our messages crossed. My main car is a sports car, a lot nicer and more expensive. I bought the audi to run it for 2 years as its an estate and I sometimes need that for work at the moment. I had a big Honda for lugging stuff around but that was written off after some ***ker cut the cat from underneath. The audi was meant to be the replacement
The audi is actually a much nicer car than I expected and having first driven it was thinking i might keep it longer
Our messages crossed. My main car is a sports car, a lot nicer and more expensive. I bought the audi to run it for 2 years as its an estate and I sometimes need that for work at the moment. I had a big Honda for lugging stuff around but that was written off after some ***ker cut the cat from underneath. The audi was meant to be the replacement
The audi is actually a much nicer car than I expected and having first driven it was thinking i might keep it longer
Hammersia said:
It's still called the small claims procedure.
If you're getting nowhere then just go to money claims online and file a claim, fees scale according to value of the claim but should be around £100. Keep it factual as per your description above. Nothing to lose imho.
I agree but think i need a bit of advice beforehand filling the claimIf you're getting nowhere then just go to money claims online and file a claim, fees scale according to value of the claim but should be around £100. Keep it factual as per your description above. Nothing to lose imho.
davidcw58 said:
Litigation is an emotional and time consuming path and I have better things to do on both counts. HOWEVER, I have been very calm and reasonable and they haven't made a proper effort to resolve it so they have pissed me off. The claim will now be in excess of £5000 but less than £10,000. The scope of my original claim was scaled down to make it easier to settle but as they don't want to pay anything or do any rectification works I plan to include all the works, time, car hire, travel, and anything else legitimate.
I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
It’s not down to you to decide whether a Small Claim or “Full Claim” as you call it is presented against Audi. Claims are allocated to a specific track dependent on their financial value. As yours is between £5000-£10000, it will be allocated to the Small Claims Track, you have no input into that whatsoever.I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
The fact that it will be allocated to the Small Claims Track means that costs will not be recoverable whether you succeed or not. So if you hire solicitors to present you case, be ready to throw a few grand down the pan for legal fees which you’ll never get back.
The Audi dealership was commissioned by the previous owner. I'd guess you lack standing to bring a claim in the first place.
I'd also say you have a problem proving negligence or breach of contract, as they were hired to service/repair, rather than provide an inspection you would rely upon to purchase the vehicle.
Then you're going to find yourself paying for an expert report which will be both expensive and need to contradict the Audi dealership. Then you're going to pay for a lawyer who will likely cost you more in an hour than you can claim back on the fast track, even if you win. If you're unlucky the technical complexity of the case would be sufficiently difficult that it falls out of the fast track and you're then on the hook for your own and the Audi dealers costs, which if litigated would dwarf the value of your claim.
I'd sell the Audi and move on.
I'd also say you have a problem proving negligence or breach of contract, as they were hired to service/repair, rather than provide an inspection you would rely upon to purchase the vehicle.
Then you're going to find yourself paying for an expert report which will be both expensive and need to contradict the Audi dealership. Then you're going to pay for a lawyer who will likely cost you more in an hour than you can claim back on the fast track, even if you win. If you're unlucky the technical complexity of the case would be sufficiently difficult that it falls out of the fast track and you're then on the hook for your own and the Audi dealers costs, which if litigated would dwarf the value of your claim.
I'd sell the Audi and move on.
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