The legality of PCN's

[fasimew]

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how are the prices of PCN's justified? For example, the Dartford crossing. It costs £2.50 to make a journey, but if I forget to pay the charge, I'm landed with a £70 fine.
Why is there a fine and not an invoice for £2.50?
How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

[Mandat]

fasimew said:

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how are the prices of PCN's justified? For example, the Dartford crossing. It costs £2.50 to make a journey, but if I forget to pay the charge, I'm landed with a £70 fine.
Why is there a fine and not an invoice for £2.50?
How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

Deterrent factor.

Also, vans are charged at £3.00 per crossing, if you ever need to take your van across.

[BertBert]

fasimew said:

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how are the prices of PCN's justified? For example, the Dartford crossing. It costs £2.50 to make a journey, but if I forget to pay the charge, I'm landed with a £70 fine.
Why is there a fine and not an invoice for £2.50?
How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

It's easily justifiable if you consider the costs of sending the invoices and collecting the money from recalcitrant payers.

[CanAm]

To be fair I think the Dartford crossing operators are one of the more reasonable bodies. For some reason, I omitted to pay and suddenly remembered about 4 days later, but too late. As expected, the PCN arrived about 14 days later, together with a separate letter saying that as this was apparently the first time I had used the crossing I could pay the standard £2.50 online within 24 hours instead.

[DaveH23]

Have they started issuing fines.

In the years following the tolls being removed, I think I passed 5 or 6 times without paying. When they sent the missing payment reminder I phoned them and paid just the crossing fee.

[Stoofa]

fasimew said:

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how are the prices of PCN's justified? For example, the Dartford crossing. It costs £2.50 to make a journey, but if I forget to pay the charge, I'm landed with a £70 fine.
Why is there a fine and not an invoice for £2.50?
How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

If the punishments were simply what you should have paid anyway, nobody would pay anything and chance they weren't caught.
No tolls, no parking fees and then, if you want to go to extremes, no tax, no insurance.
Let's be honest, if you were told that the worst outcome for you not paying for something was that you had to pay for it in xx months time, of course you'd chance it, because the best outcome is you don't have to.

If however the punishment is suddenly a lot harsher, it deters people. It saves on admin (having to chase people for payment) etc.

[Granadier]

To be fair, the first time you forget to pay, Dart Charge will send you the letter talking about PCNs, but when you go online to pay it, you'll find the amount demanded is reduced to £2.50. You don't get that lenient treatment from say TfL or other PCN issuers.

[Sebring440]

fasimew said:

How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

I think it depends on how old you are?

Say (for example) you were in "your mid 30s", then it would be one price.

If you were "past retirement age", you may pay a different price.

I guess in your case, you'd have to decide which of the above you identify as?

[semisane]

Sebring440 said:

fasimew said:

How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

I think it depends on how old you are?

Say (for example) you were in "your mid 30s", then it would be one price.

If you were "past retirement age", you may pay a different price.

I guess in your case, you'd have to decide which of the above you identify as?

WTF are you on / going on about ??


OP, their crossing their rules?

That does raise the question of whether you have agreed to a 'contract' with them - are the costs and fines clearly displayed, and do you have an option to not take the crossing if you don't agree ?

As other have said there is the deterant value and they do have costs to cover - it would certainly cost them more than £2.50 to invoice you after the crossing, plus all the potential chasing required etc.

[Roger Irrelevant]

semisane said:

WTF are you on / going on about ??

That does raise the question of whether you have agreed to a 'contract' with them - are the costs and fines clearly displayed, and do you have an option to not take the crossing if you don't agree ?

I agree with the first bit, but as to the second there's no question of a contract having to arise (unless you are a FMOTL loony), as the charges and penalties are set out in statute. You could try judicial review but I think they've got bigger fish to fry.

[SmoothCriminal]

The fact that it was supposed to be free now but some stupid trumped up climate change congestion excuse is used now, they're not doing you a favour offering the 2.50 if you forget to pay.

[MDMA .]

semisane said:

Sebring440 said:

fasimew said:

How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

I think it depends on how old you are?

Say (for example) you were in "your mid 30s", then it would be one price.

If you were "past retirement age", you may pay a different price.

I guess in your case, you'd have to decide which of the above you identify as?

WTF are you on / going on about ??


OP, their crossing their rules?

That does raise the question of whether you have agreed to a 'contract' with them - are the costs and fines clearly displayed, and do you have an option to not take the crossing if you don't agree ?

As other have said there is the deterant value and they do have costs to cover - it would certainly cost them more than £2.50 to invoice you after the crossing, plus all the potential chasing required etc.

You’d need to know the OP’s posting history

[AlexRS2782]

MDMA . said:

semisane said:

Sebring440 said:

fasimew said:

How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

I think it depends on how old you are?

Say (for example) you were in "your mid 30s", then it would be one price.

If you were "past retirement age", you may pay a different price.

I guess in your case, you'd have to decide which of the above you identify as?

WTF are you on / going on about ??


OP, their crossing their rules?

That does raise the question of whether you have agreed to a 'contract' with them - are the costs and fines clearly displayed, and do you have an option to not take the crossing if you don't agree ?

As other have said there is the deterant value and they do have costs to cover - it would certainly cost them more than £2.50 to invoice you after the crossing, plus all the potential chasing required etc.

You’d need to know the OP’s posting history

Yep. Have a read of OP's other recent thread - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... - and by the time you get near the end you'll realise why Sebring replied as he did

[markymarkthree]

Mandat said:

Deterrent factor.

Also, vans are charged at £3.00 per crossing, if you ever need to take your van across.

Very subtle and probably wasted on the OP.

[markymarkthree]

Sebring440 said:

I think it depends on how old you are?

Say (for example) you were in "your mid 30s", then it would be one price.

If you were "past retirement age", you may pay a different price.

I guess in your case, you'd have to decide which of the above you identify as?

Just brilliant but will fly over the head of the OP.

[Gibbler290]

The OP forgot to ask if the PCN also constituted harassment

[Mikebentley]

markymarkthree said:

Sebring440 said:

I think it depends on how old you are?

Say (for example) you were in "your mid 30s", then it would be one price.

If you were "past retirement age", you may pay a different price.

I guess in your case, you'd have to decide which of the above you identify as?

Just brilliant but will fly over the head of the OP.

Seems as if normal rules and requirements don’t apply to them. If true.

[TriumphStag3.0V8]

Mandat said:

fasimew said:

Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how are the prices of PCN's justified? For example, the Dartford crossing. It costs £2.50 to make a journey, but if I forget to pay the charge, I'm landed with a £70 fine.
Why is there a fine and not an invoice for £2.50?
How is it justifiable to fine someone £70 for what would have been £2.50?

Deterrent factor.

Also, vans are charged at £3.00 per crossing, if you ever need to take your van across.

Don't be silly, his van is only there to annoy people that live in a different street to him, it never moves, let alone ventures to the Dartford crossing.