Is there a legal procedure to force a business partner...
Discussion
...to account for money owned by the business?
Long story very short; some years ago a friend (genuinely not me) was convinced into "investing" in a business which either didn't exist or was essentially a token effort as a way to get money from them. We are talking in excess of £10k here.
Anyway, the inevitable occurred and after a few weeks the guy disappeared, claimed the unit had been broken into and the gear he'd allegedly bought for the business had gone.
The person concerned has got a wealth of evidence, including screen shots and suchlike showing with absolute certainty that they believed that this was to be a jointly run business - note, not simply an investment, a business they were to jointly run and manage which is important.
The guy receiving the money refused to let her have any access to anything regarding the business or it's operation and has completely refused to provide her an account of what the money was spent on.
She wants to be provided with an account of what it was actually used for because it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of it wasn't used for that business. Whatever has been used for non business purposes she intends to start a court claim for.
So, the question is, is there any legal procedure which she can use to force him to provide an audit trail of where this money went after he received it? Can she, for instance, use any procedure to require his bank to provide details of where it went after it arrived in his account? We suspect that what he most likely did was to use it to pay off debts of his other businesses.
And, yes, I can already hear the gloating and the comments along the lines of ...how on earth can people be so stupid, etc..., ad infinitum but this was a person at the time barely out of her teens and at a very vulnerable point in life and was trying to give herself some financial security and was basically manipulated by an older guy who we now know is a bit of a sociopath.
Any advice gratefully received.
Long story very short; some years ago a friend (genuinely not me) was convinced into "investing" in a business which either didn't exist or was essentially a token effort as a way to get money from them. We are talking in excess of £10k here.
Anyway, the inevitable occurred and after a few weeks the guy disappeared, claimed the unit had been broken into and the gear he'd allegedly bought for the business had gone.
The person concerned has got a wealth of evidence, including screen shots and suchlike showing with absolute certainty that they believed that this was to be a jointly run business - note, not simply an investment, a business they were to jointly run and manage which is important.
The guy receiving the money refused to let her have any access to anything regarding the business or it's operation and has completely refused to provide her an account of what the money was spent on.
She wants to be provided with an account of what it was actually used for because it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of it wasn't used for that business. Whatever has been used for non business purposes she intends to start a court claim for.
So, the question is, is there any legal procedure which she can use to force him to provide an audit trail of where this money went after he received it? Can she, for instance, use any procedure to require his bank to provide details of where it went after it arrived in his account? We suspect that what he most likely did was to use it to pay off debts of his other businesses.
And, yes, I can already hear the gloating and the comments along the lines of ...how on earth can people be so stupid, etc..., ad infinitum but this was a person at the time barely out of her teens and at a very vulnerable point in life and was trying to give herself some financial security and was basically manipulated by an older guy who we now know is a bit of a sociopath.
Any advice gratefully received.
Eric Mc said:
She can sue him in the same way you can sue someone who breaks into your house and steals your belongings.
Does she not have a criminal case against him?
Has she spoken to the police or Action Fraud?
Police, quite predictably don't want to know. Too difficult, most likely. This despite the fact that the burglary he claimed to have taken place on a certain date most certainly did not as he claimed he reported it but the cops have no record of it. They DO have record of one at that unit about two years previously and the pictures from that are what he sent to her to convince her it was much later. Does she not have a criminal case against him?
Has she spoken to the police or Action Fraud?
As I say, she's happy to start a court claim against him but she needs to know what, precisely, the money was used for because whatever of it was genuinely used for business purposes is legitimate spending. What she needs is access to his bank records to find out where it went after it got there.
If your friend showed the Police the screenshots and they weren’t interested perhaps they were a tad ambiguous in terms of setting up a business v someone lending / giving money to someone.
Does she have any other formal paperwork or just the phone ?
Does she know which Bank he was using ?
Is the individual still trading as a business with physical premises ?
Over what time frame from initial handover of money to now are we talking ?
Does she have any other formal paperwork or just the phone ?
Does she know which Bank he was using ?
Is the individual still trading as a business with physical premises ?
Over what time frame from initial handover of money to now are we talking ?
alscar said:
If your friend showed the Police the screenshots and they weren’t interested perhaps they were a tad ambiguous in terms of setting up a business v someone lending / giving money to someone.
Does she have any other formal paperwork or just the phone ?
Does she know which Bank he was using ?
Is the individual still trading as a business with physical premises ?
Over what time frame from initial handover of money to now are we talking ?
It was absolutely categorically to be a shared business; she has screenshots of all the conversations they had discussing it; there is a draft of an agreement that he drafted (badly) making it perfectly clear that it was a joint venture each with a 50% stake and that it would be operated jointly. That document had spaces to insert the amount of money that she would transfer and on what date. I'm not sure it was ever signed but it shows a clear intent that the ownership and day-to-day management would be shared equally. Does she have any other formal paperwork or just the phone ?
Does she know which Bank he was using ?
Is the individual still trading as a business with physical premises ?
Over what time frame from initial handover of money to now are we talking ?
I was mistaken about him saying the equipment was stolen; it was actually a van he claims to have bought with her funds that was allegedly stolen from the unit.* He claims to have sold the equipment as she was being a "bellend" by wanting to know stuff he didn't want her to know about. The message of him saying that states clearly that he will give her 50% of what he got for it. He never did, of course!
Absolutely categorically certain that they intended that it would be a shared business and was not a loan, arm's length investment or a gift.
Yes, she has shots of his bank details.
We don't know if he's trading as any sort of business or is employed or what. We do know the area in which he lives now, however.
This took place in 2020.
All she needs to do is to make him account for the money and where it went so that she can decide whether it's worth pursuing legally or even if there is a legal case to pursue.
- Now I think about it, we confirmed 100% that the story of the burglary was a lie because I went and talked to the guys who took over the unit when he left a couple of years previously and they confirmed tha he'd skipped on the rent and they had to chuck out all the crap he left in the place.
Edited by Boredanditsrainingout on Monday 22 April 18:18
Jordie Barretts sock said:
Was there anything formally drawn up before money changed hands or just texts/WhatsApp?
I think it might be, as others have said, that the game is not worth the candle.
Maybe, but she needs to know whether it's worth pursuing which she won't know until he is made to prove where the money went. I think it might be, as others have said, that the game is not worth the candle.
Boredanditsrainingout said:
Eric Mc said:
Small claims court?
See previous. All been explained above.If the guy has physically stolen her money, then there surely MUST be a criminal case possible against him.
Does she have enough proof though - not just screen shots but such things as certifiable bank records, i.e. authenticated bank statements showing the amounts of money transferred to him and the relevant dates.
If he used the money to buy a van, did she ever see evidence that he had actually bought a van, such as the purchase invoice for the van?
If this was a business venture, was a separate business bank account set up?
Was the business set up as a partnership or a limited company?
Boredanditsrainingout said:
It was absolutely categorically to be a shared business; she has screenshots of all the conversations they had discussing it; there is a draft of an agreement that he drafted (badly) making it perfectly clear that it was a joint venture each with a 50% stake and that it would be operated jointly. That document had spaces to insert the amount of money that she would transfer and on what date. I'm not sure it was ever signed but it shows a clear intent that the ownership and day-to-day management would be shared equally.
I was mistaken about him saying the equipment was stolen; it was actually a van he claims to have bought with her funds that was allegedly stolen from the unit.* He claims to have sold the equipment as she was being a "bellend" by wanting to know stuff he didn't want her to know about. The message of him saying that states clearly that he will give her 50% of what he got for it. He never did, of course!
Absolutely categorically certain that they intended that it would be a shared business and was not a loan, arm's length investment or a gift.
Yes, she has shots of his bank details.
We don't know if he's trading as any sort of business or is employed or what. We do know the area in which he lives now, however.
This took place in 2020.
All she needs to do is to make him account for the money and where it went so that she can decide whether it's worth pursuing legally or even if there is a legal case to pursue.
My knee jerk thought is that “ merely “ having a draft agreement and unsigned means nothing as his defence would be just that ie nothing came of it. I was mistaken about him saying the equipment was stolen; it was actually a van he claims to have bought with her funds that was allegedly stolen from the unit.* He claims to have sold the equipment as she was being a "bellend" by wanting to know stuff he didn't want her to know about. The message of him saying that states clearly that he will give her 50% of what he got for it. He never did, of course!
Absolutely categorically certain that they intended that it would be a shared business and was not a loan, arm's length investment or a gift.
Yes, she has shots of his bank details.
We don't know if he's trading as any sort of business or is employed or what. We do know the area in which he lives now, however.
This took place in 2020.
All she needs to do is to make him account for the money and where it went so that she can decide whether it's worth pursuing legally or even if there is a legal case to pursue.
Does she have any actual proof of transferred funds to his Bank ?
Why only now is she looking to recover what happened 4 years ago ?
I get she wants him to account for the money in your last paragraph but that in itself might be the stumbling block even before she can decide whether to pursue him.
I’m no expert but I think the small, claims court needs evidence of a business venture which the unsigned agreement is I think a problem.
I doubt any Bank will release any details based on what you have outlined thus far.
Sorry to be so negative - perhaps a friendly solicitor may be able to advise more positively.
Eric Mc said:
Boredanditsrainingout said:
Eric Mc said:
Small claims court?
See previous. All been explained above.If the guy has physically stolen her money, then there surely MUST be a criminal case possible against him.
Does she have enough proof though - not just screen shots but such things as certifiable bank records, i.e. authenticated bank statements showing the amounts of money transferred to him and the relevant dates.
If he used the money to buy a van, did she ever see evidence that he had actually bought a van, such as the purchase invoice for the van?
If this was a business venture, was a separate business bank account set up?
Was the business set up as a partnership or a limited company?
No, she didn't see the van as he was telling her nothing. It clearly never existed and neither did the other equipment he claimed to have bought. If it did then why didn't he show her?
No, the money was transferred to his personal account which she has the details of, obviously.
But, anyway, I think we're veering off target a bit here. Whether it's a legally recognised business or not is sort of beside the point. If, for the purposes of the discussion, we assume that it is indeed a joint business and that it was agreed that everything was shared equally then what legal procedure does she employ to require her business partner to account for he money in the business?
alscar said:
My knee jerk thought is that “ merely “ having a draft agreement and unsigned means nothing as his defence would be just that ie nothing came of it.
Does she have any actual proof of transferred funds to his Bank ?
Why only now is she looking to recover what happened 4 years ago ?
I get she wants him to account for the money in your last paragraph but that in itself might be the stumbling block even before she can decide whether to pursue him.
I’m no expert but I think the small, claims court needs evidence of a business venture which the unsigned agreement is I think a problem.
I doubt any Bank will release any details based on what you have outlined thus far.
Sorry to be so negative - perhaps a friendly solicitor may be able to advise more positively.
Of course. The transfer from her account to his which shows on her bank statement.Does she have any actual proof of transferred funds to his Bank ?
Why only now is she looking to recover what happened 4 years ago ?
I get she wants him to account for the money in your last paragraph but that in itself might be the stumbling block even before she can decide whether to pursue him.
I’m no expert but I think the small, claims court needs evidence of a business venture which the unsigned agreement is I think a problem.
I doubt any Bank will release any details based on what you have outlined thus far.
Sorry to be so negative - perhaps a friendly solicitor may be able to advise more positively.
She's not only trying to recover it now. She's been trying for years and, you know, life kinda has other plans sometimes.
Talking of small claims court isn't really the issue I'm asking about. She can't raise a court claim until she knows what happened to the money and whether it was actually used for legitimate business purposes. All she's trying to to - as per the thread title - is require him to state, and prove where it actually went.
And no, his bank won't release any details which is why I'm asking how she forces him to prove where it went or whether she can make an application to court to require the production of his bank statements.
In reply to your last 2 posts it just seems that you are disregarding the thought that there is actually no proof of of a business venture.
Transferring funds to a personal bank account means nothing in this regard.
I’m not that surprised the Police didn’t want to take further.
It may well come down to her word against his.
As such no bank is going to currently share his records which still won’t back up the suggestion they were in business together anyway.
Transferring funds to a personal bank account means nothing in this regard.
I’m not that surprised the Police didn’t want to take further.
It may well come down to her word against his.
As such no bank is going to currently share his records which still won’t back up the suggestion they were in business together anyway.
Forester1965 said:
What did the contract say about the £10k and what it was to be used for?
Again, it's been mentioned; it was more than £10k and the draft he drew up stated that her investment was for a 50% share in the business which was to be jointly run/administered, whatever you want to call it. As I say, though, it's irrelevant what the nature of agreement actually is - we'll deal with that later.
All I am seeking to find out that, if we assume that it is is a legitimate business then what legal procedure does she use to get him to account for the money?
alscar said:
In reply to your last 2 posts it just seems that you are disregarding the thought that there is actually no proof of of a business venture.
Transferring funds to a personal bank account means nothing in this regard.
I’m not that surprised the Police didn’t want to take further.
It may well come down to her word against his.
As such no bank is going to currently share his records which still won’t back up the suggestion they were in business together anyway.
Again, that's not what I'm asking. Transferring funds to a personal bank account means nothing in this regard.
I’m not that surprised the Police didn’t want to take further.
It may well come down to her word against his.
As such no bank is going to currently share his records which still won’t back up the suggestion they were in business together anyway.
Just assume that it is a legitimate business and that they are legal partners for the purposes of this discussion.
What legal method does she use to force him to account for the money?
Re-read the thread. Tell her to chalk it up to experience. Far too many hurdles to overcome, not least that people like the conman almost certainly will not have any money to cough up (or will be good at giving that impression).
Issues with (I presume)...
- No contract
- Potentially limitation (was it within the past 6 years?)
- Proving the money was/was not equity
- Proving the money was given only on the basis it would be used to buy certain things
- Is it a ltd company or a partnership she 'owned' 50% of?
- Experienced slippery operator who likely lies very well and knows how to frustrate processes
- Claim >£10k which means unlikely small claims track and exposure to costs and not a 'friendly' court for litigants in person
Issues with (I presume)...
- No contract
- Potentially limitation (was it within the past 6 years?)
- Proving the money was/was not equity
- Proving the money was given only on the basis it would be used to buy certain things
- Is it a ltd company or a partnership she 'owned' 50% of?
- Experienced slippery operator who likely lies very well and knows how to frustrate processes
- Claim >£10k which means unlikely small claims track and exposure to costs and not a 'friendly' court for litigants in person
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