The future is BIG policing
Discussion
Proposals to merge smaller forces were published by HM Inspector of Constabulary (HMIC) on 16 September 2005 and are being backed by Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary.
Denis O'Connor, the former chief constable of Surrey and author of the report, said, "In the interest of the efficiency and effectiveness of policing it should change."
Following the general rules that apply in business:
Bigger forces (sorry, "services") = less connection with the "customers"
... in this case [big][b]US[/b][/big]
I suggest that "big policing" will mean fewer BiB on the beat, fewer in TafPol, less discretion (more government targets to meet), more "Mr Smith did not receive the service he is entitled to expect" letters, more BiB sat is police stations writing reports and juggling figures, more sat [i]en masse[/i]in armoured vans in city centres waiting for the pubs to turn out (24x7 of course!), more "buy a map/watch/whatever" replies from any BiB you do meet (as they book some hapless motorist for parking more than 6" from the kerb), ...
You think I'm joking? A major driver is the desire to focus on "organised crime" ... which means a lesser "focus" on non-organised (or dis-organised :)) crime - i.e. the crime that Joe and Joanna Public see all too often.
Not a rant at the individual BiB, but their bosses will move the force (sorry, "service") in this direction and the new BiB will surely drive out the old. The "George Dixon" will finally be consigned to the dustbin and Joe and Joanna Soap will have to put up with whatever crime comes their way.
Streaky
Denis O'Connor, the former chief constable of Surrey and author of the report, said, "In the interest of the efficiency and effectiveness of policing it should change."
Following the general rules that apply in business:
Bigger forces (sorry, "services") = less connection with the "customers"
... in this case [big][b]US[/b][/big]
I suggest that "big policing" will mean fewer BiB on the beat, fewer in TafPol, less discretion (more government targets to meet), more "Mr Smith did not receive the service he is entitled to expect" letters, more BiB sat is police stations writing reports and juggling figures, more sat [i]en masse[/i]in armoured vans in city centres waiting for the pubs to turn out (24x7 of course!), more "buy a map/watch/whatever" replies from any BiB you do meet (as they book some hapless motorist for parking more than 6" from the kerb), ...
You think I'm joking? A major driver is the desire to focus on "organised crime" ... which means a lesser "focus" on non-organised (or dis-organised :)) crime - i.e. the crime that Joe and Joanna Public see all too often.
Not a rant at the individual BiB, but their bosses will move the force (sorry, "service") in this direction and the new BiB will surely drive out the old. The "George Dixon" will finally be consigned to the dustbin and Joe and Joanna Soap will have to put up with whatever crime comes their way.
Streaky
How come you can spot it Streaky but Fuzzchin Clarke and his minions at Home Office cannot?.
In my 30 years I went from North Riding of Yorkshire Constabulary (a magnificent, friendly, public orientated, efficient small force where everybody knew each other and proud to serve the area) to York and North East Yorkshire Police (bits off to a new Middlesbrough Borough force of Cleveland - bits on - York City and part of East Riding/West Riding and into a larger force). Rot set in. Identity of policing an area lost as was knowledge of each other and certain apathy set in. Having suffered that then Home Office again and axe wielded and we became a larger North Yorkshire Police. More apathy. Have daughter in the job now and other than working in close contact with her section does not know the wider picture of her Division and heads.
Big is not beautiful in the Police world. Nor in business and was once stated so but quickly snuffed.I thought the idea of the new fledgling Serious Organised Crime Squad (SOCA), ancillary to the Police like the FBI, was to target the big boys leaving the woolley backs to look after Joe Public but it looks as if that is not the case.There are tried procedures within the existing set up for mutual aid to help each other so stating that Plod can no longer cope is baloney.
One thing it would appear is that in what is proposed is that Chief Constables, at last, will have a stiff spine and oppose the Home Office/HMI proposal which IMHO will do no good.
Totally National Police Force looming ----ooohhhh gawd.
Must go for a lie down..... Nurse......
dvd
In my 30 years I went from North Riding of Yorkshire Constabulary (a magnificent, friendly, public orientated, efficient small force where everybody knew each other and proud to serve the area) to York and North East Yorkshire Police (bits off to a new Middlesbrough Borough force of Cleveland - bits on - York City and part of East Riding/West Riding and into a larger force). Rot set in. Identity of policing an area lost as was knowledge of each other and certain apathy set in. Having suffered that then Home Office again and axe wielded and we became a larger North Yorkshire Police. More apathy. Have daughter in the job now and other than working in close contact with her section does not know the wider picture of her Division and heads.
Big is not beautiful in the Police world. Nor in business and was once stated so but quickly snuffed.I thought the idea of the new fledgling Serious Organised Crime Squad (SOCA), ancillary to the Police like the FBI, was to target the big boys leaving the woolley backs to look after Joe Public but it looks as if that is not the case.There are tried procedures within the existing set up for mutual aid to help each other so stating that Plod can no longer cope is baloney.
One thing it would appear is that in what is proposed is that Chief Constables, at last, will have a stiff spine and oppose the Home Office/HMI proposal which IMHO will do no good.
Totally National Police Force looming ----ooohhhh gawd.
Must go for a lie down..... Nurse......
dvd
Utterly stupid.
Not only will our poor BiB be even more in hock to the government, the savings will be non-existent (like Brown's supposed savings).
The administrators will never be put out of a job (redeployed) and they'll take on more to manage the mergers (who will be employed for ever).
I don't doubt DVD is right - (the smaller the better the service almost exclusively IME) - except I doubt the CCs will be allowed to have any spine.
Fewer BiBs, more scameras, more paperwork so the BiBs we do have spend their time filling in forms. I think I'm off from this
ing country.
Not only will our poor BiB be even more in hock to the government, the savings will be non-existent (like Brown's supposed savings).
The administrators will never be put out of a job (redeployed) and they'll take on more to manage the mergers (who will be employed for ever).
I don't doubt DVD is right - (the smaller the better the service almost exclusively IME) - except I doubt the CCs will be allowed to have any spine.
Fewer BiBs, more scameras, more paperwork so the BiBs we do have spend their time filling in forms. I think I'm off from this
ing country. this is all about reducing cost regardless of the lack of police it will lead to. Think of all the top brass this will cut out, cheif constables, assistant cheif constables, all their layers of admin etc. But as you say they cannot see the wood for the trees we will see bigger forces with less contact and knowledge and more politically aware cheifs who will deliver what is the flavour of the month not what the public needs.
Yes organised crime will be targeted but will anyone come when my garage is broken into, I don't think so. Another backward step.
Yes organised crime will be targeted but will anyone come when my garage is broken into, I don't think so. Another backward step.
Rubbish
Policing in this country is stuck in the 19th century. It is crying out for reform and a national integrated force.
People are literally dying because we don't have it.
Claims that you loose local knowledge or will be more remote are just rubbish - normally spouted by incompetant fat cat CC who don't want to lose their particular feeding trough.
Policing in this country is stuck in the 19th century. It is crying out for reform and a national integrated force.
People are literally dying because we don't have it.
Claims that you loose local knowledge or will be more remote are just rubbish - normally spouted by incompetant fat cat CC who don't want to lose their particular feeding trough.
bluepolarbear said:
Rubbish
Policing in this country is stuck in the 19th century. It is crying out for reform and a national integrated force.
People are literally dying because we don't have it.
Claims that you loose local knowledge or will be more remote are just rubbish - normally spouted by incompetant fat cat CC who don't want to lose their particular feeding trough.
Mean we trek further to find police station which ist open.
Mean we wait longer for BiB to turn up after dialling 999...
Local knowledge - good knowledge. BiB knows the patch and where the yob likely to hang out.
Local BiB build that important bridge between public, trust, law enforecement. Will be like those call centres und person looking after your account at bank
- where you never get same person twice and have to go though whole story again und are no wiser afterwards (and I always end up using my L1 as this ist way I can get away with the unladylike language 
) Mean more red tape und paperwork...
This mean less time to sleuthe... They have computers/intelligence - they can already pool information/resources in theory. If they are not doing so now - whatever make you think they will employ suffient staff to update? Things get lost in large organisation....as ist case with DVLA updating of records.
Bigger - ist not better
Schools - they move to smaller schools und smaller class sizes. They find it easier to allocate budget und deliver to match need of student/staff this way.
NHS? over wieldy und overburdened with admin staff who are overwhlemed by red tapes.
So ...
Ja - we have post code lottery in NHS because of emphasis on "huge being better".
I would rather see properly trained professional in every mannerism policemen on beat (not CSOs mit zero power to arrest thugs) - and each existing force with sufficient staff to udpate and thus pool records/intelligence and resources. Keeps things local, controllable und accountable to local areas which require service and real muscly BiB not robo cops, remote CCTV policing....and binoculars und twitch box to spot the lesser blue serge in cop car!
bluepolarbear said:Wildy put it excellently, but to recap ... bluepolarbear, you obviously (and strangely) have not experienced the changes that have taken place in customer-facing businesses - and the police see themselves as just that these days.
Rubbish
[ ... ]
Claims that you loose sic local knowledge or will be more remote are just rubbish - normally spouted by incompetant fat cat CC who don't want to lose their particular feeding trough.
Soon, the police call-centre (that is already replacing the police station in the town centre) will be outsourced to the Indian sub-continent, or an African state, or China. Then there will be even less chance that your call will be dealt with in any manner that you (or more probably I and Wildy and DVD and many others would call reasonable. You should have no expectation that you will get any response by, or the presence of, a BiB ... now, later, tomorrow, ever.
Next time your property is stolen, or your premises damaged or your person assaulted, you will doubtless bask in the certain glow of satisfaction that organised crime is being targeted and that around one hundred officers are lying in wait in a warehouse at Heathrow.
Streaky
spaximus said:
this is all about reducing cost regardless of the lack of police it will lead to. Think of all the top brass this will cut out, cheif constables, assistant cheif constables, all their layers of admin etc.
No it won't. Reorganisations happen all the time in the public service. The bureaucracy never goes down ; if posts are cut it will be frontline BiB or menial jobs.
Yes, there'll be fewer CCs, but they'll either be generously paid off or put in to special units and the like.
bluepolarbear said:
Rubbish
Policing in this country is stuck in the 19th century. It is crying out for reform and a national integrated force.
People are literally dying because we don't have it.
Claims that you loose local knowledge or will be more remote are just rubbish - normally spouted by incompetant fat cat CC who don't want to lose their particular feeding trough.
It's actually not stuck in the 19th century ..... the big switch came in the 1960s. If the previous integrations haven't worked why should this be any better.
autismuk said:
this is all about reducing cost regardless of the lack of police it will lead to. Think of all the top brass this will cut out, cheif constables, assistant cheif constables, all their layers of admin etc.
No it won't. Reorganisations happen all the time in the public service. The bureaucracy never goes down ; if posts are cut it will be frontline BiB or menial jobs.
Yes, there'll be fewer CCs, but they'll either be generously paid off or put in to special units and the like.
You may be correct, the point I was making is the real reason to change is for purley cost reasons, it doesn't matter if they are true or not, someone somewhere sees a saving. I wrote on here a couple of years ago that policemen would be replaced with private forces and people laughed, but already we have "hatos" "cso" all cheaper alternatives. New recruits I belive cannot retire after just 25 years on full pensions now, so as someone else said overseas call centres? We seem to spend on endless technology for the police yet cut out what people want, local coppers doing local matters for local people, this will not give us that.
WildCat said:
[
Mean we trek further to find police station which ist open.
Mean we wait longer for BiB to turn up after dialling 999...
Why?
Why does have an integrated force mean having less police stations?
Shutting police stations will occur regardless of hight the management is structured?
Do you have to walk miles for a supermarket? NO
Do you have to walk miles for a post office? YES
Both have a national management structure.
They same applies to your other arguments - they just don't hold water as one does not flow from the other.
WildCat said:
Bigger - ist not better
Schools - they move to smaller schools und smaller class sizes. They find it easier to allocate budget und deliver to match need of student/staff this way.
NHS? over wieldy und overburdened with admin staff who are overwhlemed by red tapes.
Neither of those two organisations are managed nationally - they are the same as the Police?
I assume you are arguing that Schools are working and NHS is not.
Why is that? both have a local management structure?
It is not about size it is about efficiency.
streaky said:
Soon, the police call-centre (that is already replacing the police station in the town centre) will be outsourced to the Indian sub-continent, or an African state, or China. Then there will be even less chance that your call will be dealt with in any manner that you (or more probably I and Wildy and DVD and many others would call reasonable. You should have no expectation that you will get any response by, or the presence of, a BiB ... now, later, tomorrow, ever.
Streaky
You seem to be missing my point.
I support the totally dismantling of regional forces and in particular duplicate regional management structures and local policies on what is and isn't illegal.
The report you mention is just that a report. It is not current policy. Currently policy is for regional forces.
You highlight the current trend of police forces to shut local station telephone systems in favour of call centres. This is occuring now under the regionalised system of police forces. Can you not seperate the fact that whether or not you serve the public better through a call centre has nothing to do with whether you have a regional police force or a national one? If you have a national police force what would stop you having people ringing their local police station?
"Thinking local while being global" is one of several business models that is practised by a number of companies very sucessfully. There is nothing in nationalising the police force that prevents them from providing a local service.
It does mean having one fat cat CC and not 30+, it does mean having consistent policing throughout the UK and it does mean that all information is shared which should prevent people dying when their local force does not have the information held by another - which is happening today.
Now then! Now then!.....Stop that immediately!....
One day in the not too distant future this nation will be as the Indian sub continent, um? er? no!... as the Indian sub continent is now! 1% rich.....and 99% poor, with fech all services.
May the force...er! (sorry) Service be with you!
One day in the not too distant future this nation will be as the Indian sub continent, um? er? no!... as the Indian sub continent is now! 1% rich.....and 99% poor, with fech all services.
May the force...er! (sorry) Service be with you!
bluepolarbear said:
[
Mean we trek further to find police station which ist open.
Mean we wait longer for BiB to turn up after dialling 999...
Why?
Why does have an integrated force mean having less police stations?
Bigger the force ...less the number of open police station - and only open Mon-Sat 9 to 5....
Crime does not happen only in traditional office hours....
bluepolarbear said:
Do you have to walk miles for a supermarket? NO
Yes - and only the big ones on edges of the National Park are those 24 hour ones.....
blupolarbear said:
Do you have to walk miles for a post office? YES
No - because the village store doubles as post office
This ist tourist spot.... 
bluepolarbear said:
Both have a national management structure.
Do have pal who work for one of big chains... they have head office in same way as police have head office in shape of Home Office. Rest of structure ist in local store management (local store manager ist like Chief Super or whatever.. und the regional manager if you like ist like the CC
in their structure - bit like police divisions....if you like...) What sell in one M&S store does not necessarily sell in same way in another store.
Had student job in Swiss department chain store - und pink sweater was toppest seller in Luzern but they preferred red ones in Berne store.
Crime ist same in a way....Basel has reporedly higher rate of domestic crime than Luzern and Zurich's organised and financial crime rate ist reportedly higher than anywhere else in the Alps...
Kendal's crime pattern ist not same as Keswick's and neither same as Carlisle....
car theft is rifer on pockets of Manchester than other pocket of Manchester and certainly the crime would be different in Hulme, Moss Side and Wythenshawe area than the leafier suburbs on other sides of M60....und M56 - and crime in Middlesborough ist also rougher in nature than would be case further down A19 in Thirsk.... How would an officer based in say call centre in York be able to identify criminal element further up A19 and vice versa?
Post Office has postmasters and so on in similar vein ...
and same staff work on the counters - so we know them und they know us..... bluepolarbear said:
Bigger - ist not better
Schools - they move to smaller schools und smaller class sizes. They find it easier to allocate budget und deliver to match need of student/staff this way.
NHS? over wieldy und overburdened with admin staff who are overwhlemed by red tapes.
Neither of those two organisations are managed nationally - they are the same as the Police?
I assume you are arguing that Schools are working and NHS is not.
Why is that? both have a local management structure?
It is not about size it is about efficiency.
They found huge comps not working ...and when they merged failing schools - they found bigger failing school....but generally each school ist responsible for own budget - und some kind of local awareness/tighter management and special measure monitoring has pulled some out of the "bog" and to firmer ground so to speak.
NHS ist wayyyyy too big in management structure and so on... - thus ist less efficient. You would probably find that the management structure and red tape would increase with these huge forces - and inefficiency would be result..
Also all this will cost lot of public money to implement....
GMP did close a lot of stations - and built a huge modern one... near a town hall and residential area in Pendlteton area of Manchester -per Manchest local paper. New station (also 9-5 Mon-Fri for reporting crime at counter) ist very modern- major incident centre /dog kennels/ stables/ 27 cells und deal with over 600 customer per month allegedly...und police cannot use sirens to warn as they approach station past a blind bend as this disturb all the neighbours in local town hall und those in nearby chavcafe und the council flats...The main station they closed was off a dual carriageway closer to Manchester und nowhere near any residential area... fire station (also moved to another residential area apparently) was next door... Ist also now long way from the crime hot spots too.....
but near doughnut shop... per the paper und pal who live down in Manchester 'burbs! Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff