Q? for the BiB please
Discussion
Yesterday I got pulled and "advised" about my speed. However, I was pulled by a Ford Focus dog "van" who I had followed at a speed considerably above the limit for 15miles on a motorway and not once did he indicate.
So I got a producer and given advice about my speed. He asked if I had anything to say. Oh boy.
I asked him if indicators were an extra that his police force hadn't specified for the police spec. I also asked him if he was allowed to be speeding when he obviously wasn't on a shout (esp as he was a dog unit).
His reply re indicators was "You dont need to indicate in from a right lane into a left lane" and "if the following driver on your right isnt close then you dont need to indicate out".
And apparently his speed was down to him "dealing with speeding motorists" hmmmmmm.
Of course I should have just said yes no thanks very much two bags full sort of thing but I was well peeved by his driving!
So is he right about his indicating? And is he allowed to speed "for no reason"?
Tony :)
So I got a producer and given advice about my speed. He asked if I had anything to say. Oh boy.
I asked him if indicators were an extra that his police force hadn't specified for the police spec. I also asked him if he was allowed to be speeding when he obviously wasn't on a shout (esp as he was a dog unit).
His reply re indicators was "You dont need to indicate in from a right lane into a left lane" and "if the following driver on your right isnt close then you dont need to indicate out".
And apparently his speed was down to him "dealing with speeding motorists" hmmmmmm.
Of course I should have just said yes no thanks very much two bags full sort of thing but I was well peeved by his driving!
So is he right about his indicating? And is he allowed to speed "for no reason"?
Tony :)
All IMHO of course, BUT
1. The BiB can pull you over BUT he has NO regulated speedo so cannot give you a ticket (but can give a producer)
2. they are as bound by the highway code as you or I. If he didn't indicate he can get done, especially with his obviously ignorant comment about nobody being "near" in the inside lane......
Send him on an IAM course or get him to drive COAST!!!
1. The BiB can pull you over BUT he has NO regulated speedo so cannot give you a ticket (but can give a producer)
2. they are as bound by the highway code as you or I. If he didn't indicate he can get done, especially with his obviously ignorant comment about nobody being "near" in the inside lane......
Send him on an IAM course or get him to drive COAST!!!
I did a ride drive a few months ago and was told something similar about indicating.
Basically only indicate if you need to. Before I was indicating if I manoeuvred. Old MSM theory.
It didn't actually make complete sense at the time, but it does seem pretty effective. For example overtaking if you position correctly it is obvious you are changing lanes, and certainly moving back into the LH lane indicating is unnecessary. Clearly you are going to move back in and no other road users should assume you are going to stay out in the overtaking lane.
Basically only indicate if you need to. Before I was indicating if I manoeuvred. Old MSM theory.
It didn't actually make complete sense at the time, but it does seem pretty effective. For example overtaking if you position correctly it is obvious you are changing lanes, and certainly moving back into the LH lane indicating is unnecessary. Clearly you are going to move back in and no other road users should assume you are going to stay out in the overtaking lane.
Surely the best advice is if in doubt indicate. So what if no-one sees it? It doesn't hurt and it's good practice for when you need it.
The last thing we need is even more drivers 'assuming' when they do or don't need to indicate (or not even bothering to think about it at all) and causing an accident or misunderstanding in the process.
The last thing we need is even more drivers 'assuming' when they do or don't need to indicate (or not even bothering to think about it at all) and causing an accident or misunderstanding in the process.
jazzyjeff said:
Surely the best advice is if in doubt indicate. So what if no-one sees it? It doesn't hurt and it's good practice for when you need it.
The last thing we need is even more drivers 'assuming' when they do or don't need to indicate (or not even bothering to think about it at all) and causing an accident or misunderstanding in the process.
Thats the bit I couldn't fully understand.
Never seems to do any harm, but not indicating could cause a problem. However, I guess only if your observation isn't 100%, which it shouldn't be.
This BIB seems to be quite right - you don't HAVE to indicate unless you need to - although if you don't, and there's an accident, then you may be held at least partly responsible.
The idea is to make you think about what your signal means to those around you - there are times when signalling might give the wrong impression (ie indicating left to pull up just past a junction, person waiting to emerge thinks you are turning in... again by giving the wrong signal, you are partly responsible)
The idea is to make you think about what your signal means to those around you - there are times when signalling might give the wrong impression (ie indicating left to pull up just past a junction, person waiting to emerge thinks you are turning in... again by giving the wrong signal, you are partly responsible)
First a question. If you are behind a Police car, why are you speeding? It is irrelevant if he is - he might be on a call that does not require blue lights. They do have the right and you don't. Doing so is just asking to be pulled.
Secondly, there are many theories about indicating, all have which have been hashed over here many times, but all the advanced courses teach you to only indicate when it is required. This involves thinking about your indicating and using judgement based on the current cicrumstances to decide if it required or not.
My personal opinion of that is that no-one is 100% infallible and if you are not 100% sure then indicate. However, you must make sure your signal is not misleading (as already mentioned).
Secondly, there are many theories about indicating, all have which have been hashed over here many times, but all the advanced courses teach you to only indicate when it is required. This involves thinking about your indicating and using judgement based on the current cicrumstances to decide if it required or not.
My personal opinion of that is that no-one is 100% infallible and if you are not 100% sure then indicate. However, you must make sure your signal is not misleading (as already mentioned).
I completely agree with your sentiments and agree that if anything police cars should be there to set an example.
From hours and hours spent on cases in Magistrates courts defending myself from claims against me I could do nothing about, personally I would not want to get myself in hot water over antagonising a PC, whatever he said he was doing.
Most of the time, you will be pulled over for 'speeding' they will have little or no hard evidence which will stand up in court, and will wait for you to admit your crime.
If you dont, I would say that a producer and a ticking off would be a good result all round!
From hours and hours spent on cases in Magistrates courts defending myself from claims against me I could do nothing about, personally I would not want to get myself in hot water over antagonising a PC, whatever he said he was doing.
Most of the time, you will be pulled over for 'speeding' they will have little or no hard evidence which will stand up in court, and will wait for you to admit your crime.
If you dont, I would say that a producer and a ticking off would be a good result all round!
This is a pretty simple one surely.
You should definitely indicate to inform others what you are doing, even going into the LH lane. What's the opposing argument, that you shouldn't inform someone what you are doing. Yeh, that would be clever.
The bit about doing it if no-one is there is strange, as if there is no-one there to see you, there is no-one to comment on it. Therefore do it if you want, or don't. It doesn't matter either way.
However, although we SHOULD signal, occasionally we forget/don't give a toss/get distracted/don't know how to drive well. The Rozzer was in one of these states. He is CLEARLY talking out of his arse to suggest you don't need to indicate back into the left hand lane. Its absolute b*llocks, he knows it, you know it, we all know it. BUT, he had a number of options:
1) agree with you that he was not driving perfectly.
2) justify his actions, as he knows best.
3) do 2) and then try and book/scare/intimidate you.
Hmmmmm...wonder which it was.
Re the speeding, surely you aren't seriously asking us to belive that you genuinely thought you could follow any police officer over the limit and get away with it. You may wish to question him in principle, but obviously it's wrong, as is any argument based on the principle of "he was doing it so I was as well".
He was speeding. He can get away with it for a number of reasons. You can't. Easy innit.
You should definitely indicate to inform others what you are doing, even going into the LH lane. What's the opposing argument, that you shouldn't inform someone what you are doing. Yeh, that would be clever.
The bit about doing it if no-one is there is strange, as if there is no-one there to see you, there is no-one to comment on it. Therefore do it if you want, or don't. It doesn't matter either way.
However, although we SHOULD signal, occasionally we forget/don't give a toss/get distracted/don't know how to drive well. The Rozzer was in one of these states. He is CLEARLY talking out of his arse to suggest you don't need to indicate back into the left hand lane. Its absolute b*llocks, he knows it, you know it, we all know it. BUT, he had a number of options:
1) agree with you that he was not driving perfectly.
2) justify his actions, as he knows best.
3) do 2) and then try and book/scare/intimidate you.
Hmmmmm...wonder which it was.
Re the speeding, surely you aren't seriously asking us to belive that you genuinely thought you could follow any police officer over the limit and get away with it. You may wish to question him in principle, but obviously it's wrong, as is any argument based on the principle of "he was doing it so I was as well".
He was speeding. He can get away with it for a number of reasons. You can't. Easy innit.
Roadcraft advises that you should only indicate if another road user will benefit from it. Otherwise what's the point? Indicate left having overtaken! Why? Dog patrol was correct.
Dog patrol may have seen you speeding towards him, and decided to speed up to see what speed you will do behind him - were your actions clever? - up to you to decide.
Case law of Nicholas v Penny 1950 allows an officer to use evidence from an uncalibrated source ie. a speedo to corroborate his evidence.
So he had the option to ticket you. He chose not to.
Under the circs, and the bit of mouth you offered, I'd be counting my lucky stars.
Dog patrol may have seen you speeding towards him, and decided to speed up to see what speed you will do behind him - were your actions clever? - up to you to decide.
Case law of Nicholas v Penny 1950 allows an officer to use evidence from an uncalibrated source ie. a speedo to corroborate his evidence.
So he had the option to ticket you. He chose not to.
Under the circs, and the bit of mouth you offered, I'd be counting my lucky stars.
streaky said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again ...
Most motorists indicate to remind themselves what they just did!
Streaky
I am a lot better than that. My partner has recently increased his indicating 3fold. His Mondeo has those one touch indicators that give 3 flashes...............
I got pulled in similar circumstances once but didn't get a producer. The left the motorway before pulling me and told me I was lucky that he couldn't deal with me because he was on a way to shout? A shout so important that he then attempted to follow me for several miles.
Why do they spout such bolloxs?
Why do they spout such bolloxs?
Having said the above actually agree with his comments on indicators.
On returning to the left hand lane I was taught never to indicate as that is what ever car does after overtaking - but they don't teach that any more.
Apart from being confusing in some circumstances, in today's world and driving standards I believe there are times when it is best to leave another driver confused as to your attentions as it makes them play safe.
I good example of this is at roundabouts. If I indicate right I will often have cars pull out in front of me causing me to brake as they feel certain of my direction and elect to cut margins to zero. If I don't they are unsure and play safe and stay put.
Another example is turning left while on a busy A road. If you indicate left and some one wants to turn right in the opposite direction they will often turn right in front of you in order to whip in front of you. Not indicating keeps them put (but it has to balanced againist the need to tell any vehicle behind that you are going to slow and turn.
Modern driving with hoards of vehicles being driven by the drive by numbers system is about defensive driving and controlling the space around you and the other vehicles within that space. Not indicating is a useful technique in achiving this.
On returning to the left hand lane I was taught never to indicate as that is what ever car does after overtaking - but they don't teach that any more.
Apart from being confusing in some circumstances, in today's world and driving standards I believe there are times when it is best to leave another driver confused as to your attentions as it makes them play safe.
I good example of this is at roundabouts. If I indicate right I will often have cars pull out in front of me causing me to brake as they feel certain of my direction and elect to cut margins to zero. If I don't they are unsure and play safe and stay put.
Another example is turning left while on a busy A road. If you indicate left and some one wants to turn right in the opposite direction they will often turn right in front of you in order to whip in front of you. Not indicating keeps them put (but it has to balanced againist the need to tell any vehicle behind that you are going to slow and turn.
Modern driving with hoards of vehicles being driven by the drive by numbers system is about defensive driving and controlling the space around you and the other vehicles within that space. Not indicating is a useful technique in achiving this.
IaHa said:
Indicate left having overtaken! Why?
To let the other driver(s) know you are about to do it. Assuming it's not Kreskin following you, isn't it useful to let him (and others) know you are about to pull back in AT THAT POINT. What if he is one of the d*ckheads that thinks it's good driving to undertake. What if there is a car coming up behind. What if varying speeds need matching. Without knowing the circumstances it's difficult to say, but surely letting others know your intention is a good thing. Isn't the indicating left not a case of I'm doing it, but I'm doing now.
IaHa said:
Dog patrol may have seen you speeding towards him, and decided to speed up to see what speed you will do behind him.
Yeah, right! Good one. Hee Hee Hee.
IaHa said:
Under the circs, and the bit of mouth you offered, I'd be counting my lucky stars.
Ya right there. Never a clever idea to get gobby with a bobby. Mostly I support our BiB, but experience and commonsense tells me not to get mouthy if ya come across a bad one, regardless of the circumstances.
Big Fat F'er said:
Indicate left having overtaken! Why?
To let the other driver(s) know you are about to do it. Assuming it's not Kreskin following you, isn't it useful to let him (and others) know you are about to pull back in AT THAT POINT. What if he is one of the d*ckheads that thinks it's good driving to undertake. What if there is a car coming up behind. What if varying speeds need matching. Without knowing the circumstances it's difficult to say, but surely letting others know your intention is a good thing. Isn't the indicating left not a case of I'm doing it, but I'm doing now.
However, if you have just overtaken someone, the gap between the two of you will be increasing.
The only time he needs to know you are pulling in is if he has decided to accelerate too and close that gap, either through being an arse of for a genuine reason. When you check the mirror before pulling back in you would observe this and (assuming you are on a motorway) then not pull in.
Seems to me neither case needs a signal.
Big Fat F'er said:
Indicate left having overtaken! Why?
To let the other driver(s) know you are about to do it. Assuming it's not Kreskin following you, isn't it useful to let him (and others) know you are about to pull back in AT THAT POINT. What if he is one of the d*ckheads that thinks it's good driving to undertake. What if there is a car coming up behind. What if varying speeds need matching. Without knowing the circumstances it's difficult to say, but surely letting others know your intention is a good thing. Isn't the indicating left not a case of I'm doing it, but I'm doing now.
I indicate to let others know what I intend to do NOT what I want them to do. That's an important difference. In the circs you describe I wouldn't be moving in left, much less indicating to do so.
Big Fat F'er said:
Dog patrol may have seen you speeding towards him, and decided to speed up to see what speed you will do behind him.
Yeah, right! Good one. Hee Hee Hee.
I've done it myself in the marked car, see speeder in rearview 800m back and increase speed to see what his reaction is, even up to over 100mph. sometimes it takes a couple of miles for them to think, Errr.. perhaps this aint such a good idea.
Sometimes I'll slow down again perhaps to 90, see if they pass. All builds up a picture of their driving style, concentration etc.
A little chat will confirm whether a ticket is justified or not.
But a 15 mile follow, then some mouth?? I'm sure he'd be straight into my book!
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