Section 172 Advice - Waiting reply to letters but 28 days up
Discussion
Got a NIP about to reach the 28 day limit but I am waiting on a reply to a query (3 actually, over 2 letters) regarding the accuracy of the NIP and the validity of the photographic evidence (used against APCO guidelines)
As I have conversed with the SCP by phone twice, and sent 2 letters and still waiting reply, am I still liable for prosecution if I don't send back the NIP?
Due to the aforemented inaccurate locus on the NIP, all I can say until it is clarified is that I might have been the driver at the time, but the NIP does not allow this option.
I have genuine concerns that my car was not actually doing the speed that the radar claims, and the secondary evidence supports my view, but maybe not as low as I'd like.
All I want is them to consider the 3 points I have raised and say that genuinely in law they still have a case or that they don't without my having to go to court to argue the point. I think I have a good case, but its not worth it for the stress so I want to avoid that - its giving me a headache already and I feel that maybe I'd rather just take the points whether I am guilty or not.
In my "Police are the good guys" upbringing, I feel that if I have pointed out a failure of the process or error, that should be enough and they should just admit it and drop the ticket without playing poker with me, but am just too naive?
So the advice I need is what do I need to do now to avoid admitting guilt on the NIP before I get their clarifications but avoid it going to court?
Does offering a PACE statement automatically mean they will summons me? Or can I complete the NIP a week later once I get their replies?
As I have conversed with the SCP by phone twice, and sent 2 letters and still waiting reply, am I still liable for prosecution if I don't send back the NIP?
Due to the aforemented inaccurate locus on the NIP, all I can say until it is clarified is that I might have been the driver at the time, but the NIP does not allow this option.
I have genuine concerns that my car was not actually doing the speed that the radar claims, and the secondary evidence supports my view, but maybe not as low as I'd like.
All I want is them to consider the 3 points I have raised and say that genuinely in law they still have a case or that they don't without my having to go to court to argue the point. I think I have a good case, but its not worth it for the stress so I want to avoid that - its giving me a headache already and I feel that maybe I'd rather just take the points whether I am guilty or not.
In my "Police are the good guys" upbringing, I feel that if I have pointed out a failure of the process or error, that should be enough and they should just admit it and drop the ticket without playing poker with me, but am just too naive?
So the advice I need is what do I need to do now to avoid admitting guilt on the NIP before I get their clarifications but avoid it going to court?
Does offering a PACE statement automatically mean they will summons me? Or can I complete the NIP a week later once I get their replies?
Section 172 is quite specific in that having been requested in writing, by or on behalf of Chief of Police, a Reg Keeper or any person with information, has to name the driver of a vehicle involved in an alleged offence within 28 days. If they don't then it is an offence. But, a person on whom the above request (notice) was served shall not be Guilty of an offence if he shows that either he gave the information as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of that period or that it was not reasonably practicable for him to do so.
Further, a person will not be guilty of an offence of failing to name if he shows that he did not know and could not without reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.
The tone of the above two paragraphs indicate that these matters are to be decided at a Court.
The initial Conditional Offer of £60/3 points is for cases where there are no issues of contention which is not the case in this incident. A Conditional offer does not involve a trial in itself. Areas of contention are a Not Guilty plea and a case for Court.
If S172 Form to name the driver is not returned within the 28 days, commencing from the date of service (i.e.posting), then the SCP can invoke Court proceedings for failing to name as opposed to exceeding a speed limit.
However I have heard of cases where they have been prepared to extend the 28 days and with this in mind you may consider contacting them to ask for an extension in order that you can clear certain matters up to trace the driver. They will not be interested in any argument about the speed alleged - again a matter for Court if charged with speeding and do not agree.
dvd
Further, a person will not be guilty of an offence of failing to name if he shows that he did not know and could not without reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.
The tone of the above two paragraphs indicate that these matters are to be decided at a Court.
The initial Conditional Offer of £60/3 points is for cases where there are no issues of contention which is not the case in this incident. A Conditional offer does not involve a trial in itself. Areas of contention are a Not Guilty plea and a case for Court.
If S172 Form to name the driver is not returned within the 28 days, commencing from the date of service (i.e.posting), then the SCP can invoke Court proceedings for failing to name as opposed to exceeding a speed limit.
However I have heard of cases where they have been prepared to extend the 28 days and with this in mind you may consider contacting them to ask for an extension in order that you can clear certain matters up to trace the driver. They will not be interested in any argument about the speed alleged - again a matter for Court if charged with speeding and do not agree.
dvd
Thanks for the info dvd.
I think I may just give in and send it off uncontestested, although I suppose I have contested it already by writing.
I thought I had until Wednesday, but it is actually Monday - I may have to take the thing there in person, although I can get a post mark on Sunday.
I think I am past caring, I have too much else in my life to worry about - just roll over and let them to do what they want. It is not the money, its the principle and the points I am upset about.
I'll phone before I go in though. Trouble is the first guy I spoke to was very helpful and I felt cared about the evidence being sound, the 2nd one didn't even listen to what I said and when I had finished, just said, fill the form, we'll send you the fine and you pay it, as if we were discussing my gas bill.
I think I may just give in and send it off uncontestested, although I suppose I have contested it already by writing.
I thought I had until Wednesday, but it is actually Monday - I may have to take the thing there in person, although I can get a post mark on Sunday.
I think I am past caring, I have too much else in my life to worry about - just roll over and let them to do what they want. It is not the money, its the principle and the points I am upset about.
I'll phone before I go in though. Trouble is the first guy I spoke to was very helpful and I felt cared about the evidence being sound, the 2nd one didn't even listen to what I said and when I had finished, just said, fill the form, we'll send you the fine and you pay it, as if we were discussing my gas bill.
They wont be bothered about any arguments etc, all they are interesting in is you paying the fine.
It is highly unlikley that they will issue court procedings straight away, but rather a more agressive threatening letter to name the driver again. The reason for this is that if it goes to court, they dont get to keep the money, so use this as a last resort.
Best thing to do, is plead not guilty, ask for all the evidence (might be better looking at pepipoo for advice), which needs to be with you seven days before trial. If they dont do this, the evidence cannot be used. You can plead guilty at this time, before actually going to court, with which you will receive an additional fine to cover court costs of £35. A bargain if I ever heard of it, the extra benefit is the scams dont get a penny of it.
It is highly unlikley that they will issue court procedings straight away, but rather a more agressive threatening letter to name the driver again. The reason for this is that if it goes to court, they dont get to keep the money, so use this as a last resort.
Best thing to do, is plead not guilty, ask for all the evidence (might be better looking at pepipoo for advice), which needs to be with you seven days before trial. If they dont do this, the evidence cannot be used. You can plead guilty at this time, before actually going to court, with which you will receive an additional fine to cover court costs of £35. A bargain if I ever heard of it, the extra benefit is the scams dont get a penny of it.
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