Police run the country ... OFFICIAL!
Discussion
Well, that's what one might assume from a recent statement made by that apologist of (and apology for) a Prime Minister - Tony B Liar.
He believes he has a "duty" to do what the police are advising him in the "war against terror" ... i.e. bang people up for 90 days without trial.
What about your duty to the people who voted for you (deliberately misled into that though they might have been)?
What about your duty to all the people of the UK?
What about shuffling off before you do more damage to civil liberties?
Streaky
He believes he has a "duty" to do what the police are advising him in the "war against terror" ... i.e. bang people up for 90 days without trial.
What about your duty to the people who voted for you (deliberately misled into that though they might have been)?
What about your duty to all the people of the UK?
What about shuffling off before you do more damage to civil liberties?
Streaky
. 
. Am i the only one who welcomes the Anti-Terror laws? What's the chance of me being 'banged up' for 90 days? Zilch, that's the answer. Bring 'em on as far as i'm concerned! These are unique times which call for unique laws. The majority of the British public, i believe, have had enough of the Civil liberties crap. The more laws like this the better......
7db said:
*gasp*
Those of us who arn't 'Company Directors' believe in giving the Police MORE powers, rather than taking them away. Sorry if that outrages you SO much. Perhaps you will be happier when more innocent people are blown to pieces on our underground system? I think you'll find that the people who commit such acts arn't interested in intelligent debate on Forums like Pistonheads. If you don't agree with me then fine, we're lucky enough to live in a country where our freedoms are protected. I'm sorry you don't see things the same as me, i really am, but please don't make me feel like some bloody neo-nazi for having my opinion......
Firefly said:
we're lucky enough to live in a country where our freedoms are protected.
True we are very lucky to live in a relativly free contry, but how can you protect freedoms but removing them?
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
William Pitt"
And we seem to be hearing alot about Necessity recently...
Firefly said:
Am i the only one who welcomes the Anti-Terror laws? What's the chance of me being 'banged up' for 90 days? Zilch, that's the answer.
Prior to 22 July 2005, what were the chances of an innocent Brazilian (described by the watcher as an "IC1" ) being mistaken for a terrorist and being shot to death on the Tube?
Firefly said:
Those of us who arn't 'Company Directors' believe in giving the Police MORE powers, rather than taking them away. Sorry if that outrages you SO much. Perhaps you will be happier when more innocent people are blown to pieces on our underground system? I think you'll find that the people who commit such acts arn't interested in intelligent debate on Forums like Pistonheads. If you don't agree with me then fine, we're lucky enough to live in a country where our freedoms are protected. I'm sorry you don't see things the same as me, i really am, but please don't make me feel like some bloody neo-nazi for having my opinion......
"Run with wolves ..." Perhaps you are happy with tens of thousands of innocent people already "detained" under the Terrorism Act 2000 each year. Perhaps you are happy with pensioners being "detained" under the same Act for shouting one (wholly accurate) word at a Nu Labia Minister. Perhaps you are happy with people being "detained" under that Act because they were wearing T-shirts with slogans damning the ruling elite. Perhaps you are happy with the secret policeman under the bed. Perhaps you are also happy with the steadily growing trend of tracking the movements of every person in the UK (National ID Card, vehicle tracking systems, face-recognition systems linked to CCTV, etc., etc.). Perhaps you are happy with the steadily growing army of uniformed busy-bodies flaunting and abusing their ever-growing powers. Perhaps you will still be happy when you can't move without some official demanding to know where you're going, where you've been and what you are doing. You might be, but the rest of us, "company directors" and nose-to-the-gringstone workers, won't!
Neo-Nazi? More like neo-Stalinist. But then the extremes are often very alike.
Think on the following wise words, spoken by men of deep-seated principle and passion, not the petty-fogging statements of "clean-slates" upon which every cause writes large, confident that the mouth will spout their words ... and be ready with an unfelt apology when the innocent are wronged.
There is a price tag on human liberty. That price is the willingness to assume the responsibilities of being free men. Payment of this price is a personal matter with each of us. - James Monroe
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. -- James Madison
The time to guard against corruption and tyranny, is before they shall have gotten hold on us. It is better to keep the wolf out of the fold, than to trust to drawing his teeth and talons after he shall have entered.– Thomas Jefferson
The history of liberty is a history of limitation of government power, not the increase of it. - Woodrow Wilson
Government consists in nothing else but so controlling subjects that they shall neither be able to, nor have cause to do it harm. - Nicolo Machiavelli
The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. - Daniel Webster
Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority ... - Daniel Webster
Of course the people dont want war...that is understood. But voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. - Hermann Goering
How lucky for those in power that people don't think. - Adolf Hitler
Anyone who is not an anarchist agrees with having a policeman at the corner of the street; but the danger at present is that of finding the policeman half-way down the chimney or even under the bed. - GK Chesterton
The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry. - William F. Buckley
An oppressive government is more to be feared than a tiger. – Confucius
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy
The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments. - George Washington
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms. – Aristotle
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side. – Aristotle
The last temptation is the greatest treason: To do the right deed for the wrong reason. - T. S. Eliot
But maybe Mahatma Gandhi's words will come to pass first: First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
And read Mathew 13:9 too.
Streaky
Edited to remove an unintentional 'smiley', created by a double quote and close bracket (?) - S
>> Edited by streaky on Saturday 15th October 11:17
The real terrorists are those in power.
Governments are never benevolent but always dictatorial.
Btw, ever wondered why they dont want citizens having guns? Its not as many would believe to prevent mass murders, its actually to take away an instrument that the people can use to free themselves from a greedy, corrupt, unworthy government.
Nice quotes Streaky, agree with em all.
>> Edited by deltafox on Saturday 15th October 08:44
Governments are never benevolent but always dictatorial.
Btw, ever wondered why they dont want citizens having guns? Its not as many would believe to prevent mass murders, its actually to take away an instrument that the people can use to free themselves from a greedy, corrupt, unworthy government.
Nice quotes Streaky, agree with em all.
>> Edited by deltafox on Saturday 15th October 08:44
Firefly said:
What's the chance of me being 'banged up' for 90 days? Zilch, that's the answer.
I'm sure all the prisoners of conscience around the world have their clenched fists raised in support for your admirable stance on this.
What are the criteria for detention? How does one know what one might be detained for? As it will be without charge and without trial, will those detained ever be told? Furthermore, if there is no trial, I assume that no evidence will need to be produced - after all, if there were evidence, why not just have a trial?
What if you - yes, you were detained, in a case of mistaken identity? Without recourse to trial, you have no recourse to release or appeal.
Firefly said:
These are unique times which call for unique laws. The majority of the British public, i believe, have had enough of the Civil liberties crap. The more laws like this the better...
Yes, I'm sure people have had enough of Articles 9-11 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights said:
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
You're right - that kind of thinking is just outdated, wishy-washy leftist soft-headedness. It's time these limp-wristed lentilistas realised that arbitrary detention without trial is absolutely necessary for the safety of this country. Go back to the 60s, you hippies!
Streaky, you forgot my favourite quote on this kind of topic:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
>> Edited by Ecks Ridgehead on Saturday 15th October 09:01
Firefly said:
Am i the only one who welcomes the Anti-Terror laws? What's the chance of me being 'banged up' for 90 days? Zilch, that's the answer. Bring 'em on as far as i'm concerned!
I think you have done your maths wrong. Maybe you are like the Guardian journalist who was arrested, dna taken, detained, home raided, computer equipment taken and still not return for looking at his phone in a funny way while waiting for a tube. Maybe you will be one of the 29000 stopped on anti terror laws - none of which were subsquently arrested for terrorism. Maybe you want to protest againist a future war at say RAF Fairford and find yourself physically manhandled onto a bus and forceably driven back to your home in say London without rest stops. Maybe you are getting cash at cash machine when a protest comes by and you find yourself forceably detained in the sunshine for 5 hours, forced to remove your outer clothing, fingerprinted, DNA, photographs taken and no food or toilet facilities provided. Maybe you are running to catch your train when you brains are blown out because the name of the block of flats you live in is found on a piece of paper belonging to a terrorist. All of this has happened in this country to innocent people like you in the last three years and all judge legal by the courts when challenged.
What about the future? Future Governments? Do you think these laws will be repealed when times change as surely they will? What happens when you walk into Pizza land in a decade's time and find they refuse to serve you because the ID card you have used to verify you payment transaction is linked to the NHS database which from the DNA you have given when you were stopped for speeding indicates that you have a gene that makes you suscepitable to putting on the pounds leading to a greater risk of heart attack and hence greater burden on the NHS?
Are you still going to be happy and think it was worth it?
What is that you worry about when it comes to Terrorism? Presumbly the risk of being blown up by a bomb? You need to re-evaluate the real risks in your life. I suggest you start by looking at your risk of dying from falling down the stairs in your house or drowning in water in your garden followed by a car accident and then seconday infection while at hospital. Also review you lifestyle for things that put you at risk from cancer and heart attack. Three people die every two minutes in this country and none of them are by terrorism.
bluepolarbear said:
Maybe you are like the Guardian journalist who was arrested, dna taken, detained, home raided, computer equipment taken and still not return for looking at his phone in a funny way while waiting for a tube.
David Mery was not a Guardian journalist, but his blog was published in the Guardian. You can read it here:-
http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html
Firefly said:
*gasp*
Those of us who arn't 'Company Directors' believe in giving the Police MORE powers, rather than taking them away. Sorry if that outrages you SO much. Perhaps you will be happier when more innocent people are blown to pieces on our underground system? I think you'll find that the people who commit such acts arn't interested in intelligent debate on Forums like Pistonheads. If you don't agree with me then fine, we're lucky enough to live in a country where our freedoms are protected. I'm sorry you don't see things the same as me, i really am, but please don't make me feel like some bloody neo-nazi for having my opinion......
I'm not sure what my chosen job has to do with it, although it did mean that I was on the Piccadilly line heading towards Kings Cross at 8:50 on the morning of 7/7. Thankfully I was running late. It should be noted that the last person who was blown away on the Tube was done in by overzealous policing.
You do interpret a lot from a single gasp, don't you?
I'm all for the Police having more powers if that is what is necessary, so long as the Courts are given more in checks and balances, and there is proper oversight of the use of those powers.
Since I suspect there is not, and it has not been shown otherwise, I remain firmly against the expansion of powers, and erosion of liberties.
I'm a libertarian in character - a fan of Milton Friedman, and I suspect there will be plenty that you and I will agree and disagree on - both here and in another place.
I will never call you a neo-nazi (unless you claim to being a member of the neo-nazi party), and I don't think it's helpful to open debate to sink to emotive and moralistic posturing rather than logical debate on the facts and underlying morals.
7db said:
I will never call you a neo-nazi (unless you claim to being a member of the neo-nazi party), and I don't think it's helpful to open debate to sink to emotive and moralistic posturing rather than logical debate on the facts and underlying morals.
Fair enough. I must admit i got nothing like the 'flaming' i expected! Some very interesting replies there, so thank you. They still haven't changed my mind in any way though. I guess i'm just too entrenched in my own ideas of 'law and order'.....
Firefly,
I think a lot of it comes down to how much trust you have in "the system". Many people are what could be described as "optimists", and believe government is there to do what's best for the country as a whole.
Others, though are "pessimists", or more often still "cynics", and believe that a number of people in power are there for their own ends, and do not disclose all of their vested interests. Such people often refer back to Weimar Germany and the election and popular support for Hitler, or to the clear abuses of power that take place in the USA, where corporate "sponsorship" of politicians is a fact of life.
My view, in current-day Britain, is more centrist but steadily leaning towards the pessimists as I see what policies the government keep coming out with.
But more importantly for me, is not "what the government and police are like now", but what they may be like in 10, 20, 40 years...and whether policies like this have the POTENTIAL to be abused. Because this is exactly how police states arise in other parts of the world - semi-innocuous legislation is passed by well-meaning governments, then abused by future regimes for their own ends.
I genuinely fear this legislation - not for myself - like you, I don't feel I have anything to fear. But for those whose skin is darker, or who follow other religions, or who speak with an Irish accent...these people WILL be wrongly arrested and detained...because police are human and have human prejudices.
And worse...it could very easily be used to quell dissent - EXISTING anti-terror laws led to the arrest and detention of an OLD WHITE MIDDLE-CLASS MAN just for protesting at the Labour Party conference!!! He was later released and an apology was issued...but if current laws can be interpreted that way, then we in the UK are half-way towards losing our right to protest...which believe it or not is one of the most valuable freedoms in a democracy!!!
I think a lot of it comes down to how much trust you have in "the system". Many people are what could be described as "optimists", and believe government is there to do what's best for the country as a whole.
Others, though are "pessimists", or more often still "cynics", and believe that a number of people in power are there for their own ends, and do not disclose all of their vested interests. Such people often refer back to Weimar Germany and the election and popular support for Hitler, or to the clear abuses of power that take place in the USA, where corporate "sponsorship" of politicians is a fact of life.
My view, in current-day Britain, is more centrist but steadily leaning towards the pessimists as I see what policies the government keep coming out with.
But more importantly for me, is not "what the government and police are like now", but what they may be like in 10, 20, 40 years...and whether policies like this have the POTENTIAL to be abused. Because this is exactly how police states arise in other parts of the world - semi-innocuous legislation is passed by well-meaning governments, then abused by future regimes for their own ends.
I genuinely fear this legislation - not for myself - like you, I don't feel I have anything to fear. But for those whose skin is darker, or who follow other religions, or who speak with an Irish accent...these people WILL be wrongly arrested and detained...because police are human and have human prejudices.
And worse...it could very easily be used to quell dissent - EXISTING anti-terror laws led to the arrest and detention of an OLD WHITE MIDDLE-CLASS MAN just for protesting at the Labour Party conference!!! He was later released and an apology was issued...but if current laws can be interpreted that way, then we in the UK are half-way towards losing our right to protest...which believe it or not is one of the most valuable freedoms in a democracy!!!
Firefly said:
Those of us who arn't 'Company Directors' ...
You didn't deserve a personal flaming for your comments about law and order but you do deserve a personal flaming for that remark.
It was ill considered and impolite. I have spent my life gaining the skills and opportunities necessary to embark on a career as a Company Director. I have sacrificed and worked damn hard to get the chance and I have risked everything, as an entrpreneur, to make a go of running a business.
And you feel its OK to use the term "Company Director" as if it was an insult.
I hope you won't mind overly if I sum up my reaction to your comment in just two words:
"Up yours"
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