CATERHAM V'S WESTFIELD
Discussion
Martin Keene said:
There is no bitterness here. OK, so you couldn't buy an engine from Cosworth until the following year, but what is the difference, apart from possibly a warrenty, between a kit of parts designed for the USA tuning scene fitted to an engine from another source, and those same bits fitted to an engine from another source?
And no up-swallowing by the CC marketing machine here 
I think the key is that they are being built and fitted by the engine manufacturer themselves. It is probably a bit naive to think that SBD or Raceline or whomever don't do much the same thing.
But that wasn't the original point anyway, it was that these things cost time and money. Not to say that a fair amount of that wasn't swallowed by Cosworth. It was a good marketing coup for them too.
I guess all we are arguing about is the size of the involvement of Caterham in the design. Did Cosworth just bolt on their "kit" and say "here yer go" or was there more to it ?
Will have to get my father to ask Mike how it all works, next time the gliding weather looks good
Noger said:
Sam_68 said:
Arch no longer make the Caterham chassis. IIRC they are now manufactured by Caged. Just one more non-original aspect of the 'original', these days.
I think it's safe to say that Arch weren't responsible for the Lotus XIII, either.
Well, Caged no longer exist per se. Caged were split into Steel Fabrications (owned by Caterham) and the Roll Cage bit. Very nice people. Built my roll cage. They build the CSR chassis (well, some of them).I think it's safe to say that Arch weren't responsible for the Lotus XIII, either.
The new R500 is the old S3 chassis, which is imperial still. So who builds that ?
Arch are very nice too. They rebuilt my chassis. And when I was there recently they seemed to be as busy on the Caterham front as ever.
Have you ever been to Arch ? They have a thing on the wall about all the manufacturers they have produced things for. Brabham. March. Lotus. Chevron (you do know that Chris Smith bought Chevron ? And who produces the chassis for the new car, ah yes, the same company that has been produced race car chassis for decades !). And the Lotus 23 chassis too of course. No, really. Just pick up a copy of "Lotus and Caterham : Racers for the road". Or any book on early Lotus racing. Or do actual facts tend to get in the way of your firmly held opinions ?
Edited by Noger on Tuesday 8th April 21:43
Noger said:
Sam_68 said:
Arch no longer make the Caterham chassis. IIRC they are now manufactured by Caged. Just one more non-original aspect of the 'original', these days.
I think it's safe to say that Arch weren't responsible for the Lotus XIII, either.
Well, Caged no longer exist per se. Caged were split into Steel Fabrications (owned by Caterham) and the Roll Cage bit. Very nice people. Built my roll cage. They build the CSR chassis (well, some of them).I think it's safe to say that Arch weren't responsible for the Lotus XIII, either.
The new R500 is the old S3 chassis, which is imperial still. So who builds that ?
Arch are very nice too. They rebuilt my chassis. And when I was there recently they seemed to be as busy on the Caterham front as ever.
Have you ever been to Arch ? They have a thing on the wall about all the manufacturers they have produced things for. Brabham. March. Lotus. Chevron (you do know that Chris Smith bought Chevron ? And who produces the chassis for the new car, ah yes, the same company that has been produced race car chassis for decades !). And the Lotus 23 chassis too of course. No, really. Just pick up a copy of "Lotus and Caterham : Racers for the road". Or any book on early Lotus racing. Or do actual facts tend to get in the way of your firmly held opinions ?
Just a factual note, Chris Smith has not bought Chevron it is alive and well South of Manchester. He did buy some old stock from R Andreason last year, started up a new company called Gridbase & changed the name to Chevron Cars.
Edited by Noger on Tuesday 8th April 21:43
I have a Caterham CSR260 and it is a fabulous car; for certain things.
It was almost £40K used. On the one hand, 0-60 in under 3 seconds and incredible handling and braking would cost you £100,000 in a conventional sports car so it's cheap.
On the other hand, for what you actually get, a 4 cylinder Ford engine and somewhere to sit, it is jokingly expensive. In fact the car cannot possibly cost half of that to make new so the mark up is huge.
Westfields are great value by comparison and locally an immaculate 2013 Honda S2000-engined Westy fetched just £21,000. Caterhams from 1997 are fetching that still.
The Honda's (9.000 rpm-capapble) 237bhp, in a car weighing just 660kgs ready to roll will be an ace drive, surely?
So Westfield for VFM and Caterham if you wanna splash out and get better quality and a better name.
It was almost £40K used. On the one hand, 0-60 in under 3 seconds and incredible handling and braking would cost you £100,000 in a conventional sports car so it's cheap.
On the other hand, for what you actually get, a 4 cylinder Ford engine and somewhere to sit, it is jokingly expensive. In fact the car cannot possibly cost half of that to make new so the mark up is huge.
Westfields are great value by comparison and locally an immaculate 2013 Honda S2000-engined Westy fetched just £21,000. Caterhams from 1997 are fetching that still.
The Honda's (9.000 rpm-capapble) 237bhp, in a car weighing just 660kgs ready to roll will be an ace drive, surely?
So Westfield for VFM and Caterham if you wanna splash out and get better quality and a better name.
Taking the badge issues away from the cars, look at the engineering detail /suspension design in a Westfield then compare this to a Caterham. I'd wager that, CSR and in-board suspended cars aside, the Westfield is the better car...
Apart from evolving the power train, the bulk of the caterham platform hasn't changed much at all since the S3 initially came out.
Apart from evolving the power train, the bulk of the caterham platform hasn't changed much at all since the S3 initially came out.
I have owned a 2008 Westfield FW Duratec with every extra that could be ordered, £24000 kit cost.
I have also owned a 2007 Caterham R400D with a few extras, £40000 new today (a 420R)!!!!
The Westfield is much better value, is hard on the road and has a little bit twitchy handling (it over steers faster and snaps back faster)
The Caterham is more fun to drive, compliant on the road, faster, lighter, much better built as it does not squeak and rattle because there is no fibreglass moving and has more progressive change to and from over steer.
The R400 was not much quicker on a track though I think that was due to the Avons on it versus the 888's on the Westy.
I would buy either again if they had the same spec engine, it's really cost versus quality.
I have also owned a 2007 Caterham R400D with a few extras, £40000 new today (a 420R)!!!!
The Westfield is much better value, is hard on the road and has a little bit twitchy handling (it over steers faster and snaps back faster)
The Caterham is more fun to drive, compliant on the road, faster, lighter, much better built as it does not squeak and rattle because there is no fibreglass moving and has more progressive change to and from over steer.
The R400 was not much quicker on a track though I think that was due to the Avons on it versus the 888's on the Westy.
I would buy either again if they had the same spec engine, it's really cost versus quality.
Sbend said:
Apart from evolving the power train, the bulk of the caterham platform hasn't changed much at all since the S3 initially came out.
If it ain't broke why fix it?I haven't read through all of this so forgive me if there is enough information to answer my question. I've had two Caterhams and had a huge amount of fun with both, but the first, a VX HPC with concrete Michelin Pilots and big wheels, was a complete dog compared to the second, which was an R400k. Nimble, agile, revy, forgiving, and I suspect one of the best 7s ever.
Stupidly I sold it after about ten years of track days and touring, and after a while thought I might get another 7. The Westfield S2000 seemed to offer most, if not more, than a CSR for much less money and thought I would buy one, but was put off for two reasons. One, Westfield didn't want me to drive their demonstrator, and two, looking at the Westfield promotional video showed lurid handling, not unlike the VX HPC with its boat anchor engine up front. Further research confirmed the Honda engine is a heavy lump at 350kgs (?) including ancillaries. On the other hand, a Duratec weighs about 120kgs (?) bare. I decided not to bother.
Are there owners reading this who can tell me I was wrong?
Stupidly I sold it after about ten years of track days and touring, and after a while thought I might get another 7. The Westfield S2000 seemed to offer most, if not more, than a CSR for much less money and thought I would buy one, but was put off for two reasons. One, Westfield didn't want me to drive their demonstrator, and two, looking at the Westfield promotional video showed lurid handling, not unlike the VX HPC with its boat anchor engine up front. Further research confirmed the Honda engine is a heavy lump at 350kgs (?) including ancillaries. On the other hand, a Duratec weighs about 120kgs (?) bare. I decided not to bother.
Are there owners reading this who can tell me I was wrong?
dptdpt said:
Further research confirmed the Honda engine is a heavy lump at 350kgs (?) including ancillaries. On the other hand, a Duratec weighs about 120kgs (?) bare. I decided not to bother.
Are there owners reading this who can tell me I was wrong?
"Research"? DO you honestly think a Honda 2 litre engine is going to weigh almost triple a Duratec? Are there owners reading this who can tell me I was wrong?
"Google F20C weight" and I think you may have your kg and lbs mixed up.
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/64116-how-much-doe...
http://www.v8s2000.com/forums/showthread.php?8-STI...
The XE engine is 25kgs heavier than a duratec due to the cast iron block but its very strong. I can't......hope the difference in handling due to the 25kgs is un noticeable as I am close to buying a high spec XE engined car.
I also regretted selling a car, my R400d, I have never driven anything as good .......then I sold it! Oooops
I hope a high spec XE is better than the R400d.
I also regretted selling a car, my R400d, I have never driven anything as good .......then I sold it! Oooops
I hope a high spec XE is better than the R400d.
Paper Lawyer, you are right. Looked up my "research" and find the figure was "in the early 200's kgs. My memory is clearly not what it was.
Nevertheless, the position still applies. I know from experience how different model Caterhams can be, and I was put off the Westfield S2000 as a result of discovering the weight of the Honda engine.
Are there any owners out there who can tell me I was wrong to assume the handling would reflect having a heavy lump up front, just as the compromised VX HPC is?
Nevertheless, the position still applies. I know from experience how different model Caterhams can be, and I was put off the Westfield S2000 as a result of discovering the weight of the Honda engine.
Are there any owners out there who can tell me I was wrong to assume the handling would reflect having a heavy lump up front, just as the compromised VX HPC is?
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