Wednesday 4th January 2006

Lawless drivers compromise safety

Scamera fines reveal huge underclass

---

Don't register and you're immune

A number of stories in recent days, including those from the Telegraph, the BBC and the Independent, have highlighted disparities in speed camera 'conversion rates' from notices to fines in different parts of the country.

For instance, London and Manchester -- large urban areas -- have the poorest conversion rates. The stories express outrage that the chances of being caught vary, depending on where you are.

But the real story, according to road safety campaign Safe Speed, is that it's indicative of the numbers of untraceable vehicles in use in these areas.

Campaign founder Paul Smith said: "The problem that concerns me here, as highlighted by these figures, is that people are finding themselves better off outside the law. If your vehicle is not properly registered, then you are close to immune from speeding, parking and congestion charge fines. While the public perceives these fines as onerous, more and more people are deliberately neglecting proper vehicle registration. This is one important factor in the low 'conversion rates' in certain areas of the country.

"If this trend continues -- and while we police by camera and computer it will -- the risk is that we will lose control of the entire vehicle registration process. We are not far away from such a situation already. A professional bailiff, talking with me on Talksport Radio earlier in the year, told me that of 100 congestion charge non-payment follow-ups, 99 were untraceable. This is already the reality of policing by camera and computer, and it can only get worse.

"The vast majority of responsible citizens should feel that registering their vehicles will be a benefit and not a curse. Policing by camera and computer simply does not and will not work - too many people just find their own individual ways of working around the system.

"The only answer is to police the roads properly. We need to get police out from behind their desks and statistical returns and put them on the roads again looking for all manner of bad driving. It's part of the proven formula that gave us the safest roads in the world in the first place."

• www.safespeed.org.uk

[julianc]

As usual, Paul hits the nail on the head.

[simon@63]

And the numpties from the car-hating organisations simply don't understand that.

Single-issue groups (does this include plod??? ) are frequently blinkered idiots.

The Safe-speed view is a rare and welcome exception to that generalization.

[bunglist]

Once again the problem is the government with all the red tape and paperwork they are getting the coppers to do now.

Don't get me wrong I do not like coppers as much as the next person but they have to be in place otherwise we'll have anarchy which is no good!!!!!!

But give them less paperwork to fill in so that they can get back out on the streets showing good presents and this will reduce crime which is really what police are for.

[minicity]

Is not this already being addressed with continuous licensing/SORN/new V5s and cameras to catch unlicensed drivers? And I think the stats show that the "trend" is decreasing, not increasing.

[browno]

Very soon the most valuable part of your car will be the number plates - theft is already rising, and no doubt likely to continue... but with little awareness - as highlighted on 5th gear the other week where Jon (Bradbury?) took the plates off a new merc in a very public car park and no-one batted an eyelid...

[Peter Ward]

All these systems depend on cars being legally registered. What have we learned recently?

1. 99% of cars done for avoidance of payment for congestion zone are not traceable
2. 40% (?) of speeding NIPs fail to achieve prosecution

I wonder if item 2 has any link to item 1? Of course 1% of that 40% will be people who quote PACE, fight the system, etc, etc, but I expect the other 39% are simply untraceable. They are, I would guess, also more likely to be dangerous drivers.

So we may have a situation where the law-abiding population is being done for speeding while the rest avoid it -- and it's "the rest" that are the real causes of KSIs. It would be very interesting to know what proportion of KSIs are caused by untraceable vehicles. Wouldn't it be the ultimate insult if 100% of traceable drivers caught speeding caused 0% of the KSIs?

[james_j]

Peter Ward said:

So we may have a situation where the law-abiding population is being done for speeding while the rest avoid it -- and it's "the rest" that are the real causes of KSIs.

Yes, this is the whole point many of us have been making for some time.

The main causes of deaths are by those least caught by cameras. Why should this be? Because speed is not the problem.

[tinman0]

minicity said:

Is not this already being addressed with continuous licensing/SORN/new V5s and cameras to catch unlicensed drivers? And I think the stats show that the "trend" is decreasing, not increasing.

not sure continuous licensing/sorns/ new v5s matter to someone who isn't going to register their car in the first place. the latest idea (on 5th wheel the other week) was to nick number plates from other cars.

[Sgt^Roc]

julianc said:

As usual, Paul hits the nail on the head.

So what about that advert from the DVLA they say they know where every vehicle, who is lying them?

[catso]

Sgt^Roc said:

So what about that advert from the DVLA they say they know where every vehicle, who is lying them?

Well if that ad were true, why do they need ANPR?........

[_dobbo_]

Sgt^Roc said:

julianc said: As usual, Paul hits the nail on the head. So what about that advert from the DVLA they say they know where every vehicle, who is lying them?

DVLA is a notoriously innaccurate database - something like 30% of records are wrong... so the whole "we know where you are" thing is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

[xxplod]

Yep, SS is spot-on on this, I've been saying it for years.

[julianc]

_dobbo_ said:

DVLA is a notoriously innaccurate database - something like 30% of records are wrong... so the whole "we know where you are" thing is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

Didn't I see an article in the Sunday Times a few days ago stating that only 40% of DVLA records were accurate?

[_dobbo_]

julianc said:

_dobbo_ said: DVLA is a notoriously innaccurate database - something like 30% of records are wrong... so the whole "we know where you are" thing is a bit of a stretch to say the least. Didn't I see an article in the Sunday Times a few days ago stating that only 40% of DVLA records were accurate?

Wouldn't surprise me, although it's a frightening back end to base the new ANPR system on if that's the case - infact that's true even if it's only 10% inaccurate.

In the last year DVLA have got 5 registration documents wrong for me - on two cars. When you send off a correction, and it comes back with the original problem corrected and a new mistake, you sort of lose any faith in the system!

[stenniso]

minicity said:

Is not this already being addressed with continuous licensing/SORN/new V5s and cameras to catch unlicensed drivers? And I think the stats show that the "trend" is decreasing, not increasing.

If the vehicle is not already registered, where do the DVLA send the forms to that remind you to fill in your SORN, buy your insurance, or pay your road tax?

As for the DVLA adverts, they should be modified to state "We know where you are - if you happen to be a law abiding citizen who took the time out to register your vehicle correctly".

The only way to tackle non-registered cars is to have ANPR backed up with real, flesh and blood BIB, who can stop the offenders as they are spotted, or to have patrols on streets checking the status of parked cars.

[minicity]

stenniso said:

minicity said: Is not this already being addressed with continuous licensing/SORN/new V5s and cameras to catch unlicensed drivers? And I think the stats show that the "trend" is decreasing, not increasing. If the vehicle is not already registered, where do the DVLA send the forms to that remind you to fill in your SORN, buy your insurance, or pay your road tax? As for the DVLA adverts, they should be modified to state "We know where you are - if you happen to be a law abiding citizen who took the time out to register your vehicle correctly". The only way to tackle non-registered cars is to have ANPR backed up with real, flesh and blood BIB, who can stop the offenders as they are spotted, or to have patrols on streets checking the status of parked cars.

But the register *is* becoming more accurate as less vehicles are allowed to "fall off" it. Of course vehicles that are already off the record are very hard to get back on it.

[mr_p]

minicity said:

But the register *is* becoming more accurate as less vehicles are allowed to "fall off" it. Of course vehicles that are already off the record are very hard to get back on it.

How can a car that's been in an accident and considered to be written off then taken to a scrap yard be stopped from being bought "for parts", fixed up a bit (just so it runs - not enough to be safe) be stopped from falling off the system. It's been removed from the system already.

Throw in a false number plate for the icing on the cake and your laughing...

[phillipj]

"The only way to tackle non-registered cars is to have ANPR backed up with real, flesh and blood BIB, who can stop the offenders as they are spotted, or to have patrols on streets checking the status of parked cars."

You mean like the police used to do up until the GATSO was invented?

[nonegreen]

Why do we actually need any of this crap? In the end it is all down to revenue. The standard of driving is already so poor that no governance would not make it worse so why are we bothered that the big brother system is imploding. This corrupt group of criminals that run the place are going to need more and more resource to maintain the control. With economic pressure to perform on a world stage and oil income on the decline overall I feel sure the infrastructure of the greens will look similar to the infrastructure of the ideals of the former eastern Block. Rusty speed cameras and worn out speed humps literally worn flat and smashed up by residents sick of the damn things. In many ways our country is striving for 3rd world status. We squander billions on elaborate ways to create criminals out of law abiding citizens while our hospitals are riddled with disease and our schools work hard to waste 11000 hours of input to our children to the extent that even the gifted and tallented leave with levels of attainment equal to that of an 11 year old educated in the middle of the Blitz. Our defense system is in dire need of new nuclear weapons and delivery capability yet we continue to run up bills of millions for horses and swords which I could take out with a cheap machine gun from 200 yards away even if I was pissed. We allow the spineless one to give away even more billions to the corrupt haymakers in Brussels who will sooner or later probably find a way to dump us once the oil money runs out. In addition we parade the royal parasites around the world at huge expense, making us look like the entire nation is away with the fairies just like they are. The sooner our control over the people collapses under the weight of overegulation the better.