Questions about speed cameras
Discussion
Noticed a sneaky looking estate car the other day parked up by the side of the road, reflective stripes on the rear. Don't think I was speeding, but it made me wonder about a few things:
1. If the local safety camera partnership says
“The route is clearly signed showing both the speed limit and the fact that there are speed cameras. The camera signs should alert drivers to the fact that the route has a high level of casualties. The camera vehicles will be marked with high visibility markings and will operate from conspicuous points along the route.”
but the mobile camera is located in a car halfway along a long straight section of road just after a bend (so you have no chance of reacting to it before it can see you so not really conspicuous), and there are NO camera signs on the router taken, then is there any defence against a conviction if one happened to be caught? Or if not, might this not be a mitigating factor? I mean, presumably they think it's fairer to warn motorists as per the above statement, so surely that implies that it's unfair not to?
2. I didn't notice any camera outside the car (which was some sort of estate). Aren't they usually in vans? Could they be mounted in simple estates or was this some other car, ie not a camera car? Or possibly a car that hadn't deployed the camera yet?
3. How are cameras in a van or car aimed? Would they be aimed a fixed distance down the road, or just aimed (in this case) at the corner to get people as soon as possible, ie give them no time to react?
4. What hours do they generally operate? I assume daylight only - but is there a preferred start or finish time for some reason that most mobile units adhere to?
5. If you were unlucky enough to be caught speeding, might you not prefer a ban to points? Assuming you wouldn't lose your job, wouldn't you prefer to get lifts for a couple of weeks than get say 6 points, and then worry about it for another 3 years? Would there be any way of asking magistrates to oblige???
6. How long is this nightmare going to go on? When the day comes when every road has cameras or speed is constantly tracked via GPS, what the hell are we going to do????
1. If the local safety camera partnership says
“The route is clearly signed showing both the speed limit and the fact that there are speed cameras. The camera signs should alert drivers to the fact that the route has a high level of casualties. The camera vehicles will be marked with high visibility markings and will operate from conspicuous points along the route.”
but the mobile camera is located in a car halfway along a long straight section of road just after a bend (so you have no chance of reacting to it before it can see you so not really conspicuous), and there are NO camera signs on the router taken, then is there any defence against a conviction if one happened to be caught? Or if not, might this not be a mitigating factor? I mean, presumably they think it's fairer to warn motorists as per the above statement, so surely that implies that it's unfair not to?
2. I didn't notice any camera outside the car (which was some sort of estate). Aren't they usually in vans? Could they be mounted in simple estates or was this some other car, ie not a camera car? Or possibly a car that hadn't deployed the camera yet?
3. How are cameras in a van or car aimed? Would they be aimed a fixed distance down the road, or just aimed (in this case) at the corner to get people as soon as possible, ie give them no time to react?
4. What hours do they generally operate? I assume daylight only - but is there a preferred start or finish time for some reason that most mobile units adhere to?
5. If you were unlucky enough to be caught speeding, might you not prefer a ban to points? Assuming you wouldn't lose your job, wouldn't you prefer to get lifts for a couple of weeks than get say 6 points, and then worry about it for another 3 years? Would there be any way of asking magistrates to oblige???
6. How long is this nightmare going to go on? When the day comes when every road has cameras or speed is constantly tracked via GPS, what the hell are we going to do????
Can't really shed any light on UK camera logic other than I'm well overdue for some photos having sped around now for just on a year - (I love my radar detector though!)
I should add ... If you reckon the UK is bad, don't ever move to Oz.. they put cameras in garbage bins, hidden at the bottom of hills, as well as in scruffy old cars parked by the side of the road & best of all, in some states they do give you a warning sign that says.. "you have just passed a speed camera". You guys have it good here beleive it or not! All this entrapment & the best bit is that in Victoria they ping you for 3% over the limit even though govt design rules for vehicles stipulate that a speedo can be +/- 10%!!
You gotta love it huh? (c**ts!)
I should add ... If you reckon the UK is bad, don't ever move to Oz.. they put cameras in garbage bins, hidden at the bottom of hills, as well as in scruffy old cars parked by the side of the road & best of all, in some states they do give you a warning sign that says.. "you have just passed a speed camera". You guys have it good here beleive it or not! All this entrapment & the best bit is that in Victoria they ping you for 3% over the limit even though govt design rules for vehicles stipulate that a speedo can be +/- 10%!!
You gotta love it huh? (c**ts!)
gregwatson said:
2. I didn't notice any camera outside the car (which was some sort of estate). Aren't they usually in vans? Could they be mounted in simple estates or was this some other car, ie not a camera car? Or possibly a car that hadn't deployed the camera yet?
It potentially could have been a VOSA vehicle or highway maintenance guy. I've seen VOSA use an Omega & a Galaxy. They tend to have only small liveries down the side with reflective stipes.
www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/hgvpsvoperators/vosaroadsidechecks/automaticnumberplaterecognition.htm
VOSA use ANPR cameras which only need to be pointed at the 1-3lanes of the caridgeway. No targetting required so is suited to smaller vehicles.
gregwatson said:
3. How are cameras in a van or car aimed? Would they be aimed a fixed distance down the road, or just aimed (in this case) at the corner to get people as soon as possible, ie give them no time to react?
I believe they are aimed manually, or at least the laser guns are due to the narrow beam. I think this is why they use vans and not cars. It would be difficult to sit for very long in an estate whereas the vans give a more comfortable seating position. To be honest though it would be a simple task to automate the process using motion detection via a high powered camera that could be used for targetting the laser. That way you could reduce the vehicle size required.
gregwatson said:
4. What hours do they generally operate? I assume daylight only - but is there a preferred start or finish time for some reason that most mobile units adhere to?
For the laser guns they only work during daylight (presumably 1hr after day break upto 1hr before sunset). Using a laser during the dusk/night would give the game away and spoil the sport. Unlike the Gatso radar detectors the laser guns with attached cameras don't have a flash or night vision so couldn't take you photo in low light even if they wanted to hence daylight operations only.
gregwatson said:
5. If you were unlucky enough to be caught speeding, might you not prefer a ban to points? Assuming you wouldn't lose your job, wouldn't you prefer to get lifts for a couple of weeks than get say 6 points, and then worry about it for another 3 years? Would there be any way of asking magistrates to oblige???
Although I think the £60 is already steep I'd be in favour of paying more if it meant I didn't get the points added. £60 to get the points added + 3-5years of insurance premium hikes + £35 to have the points removed from your licence is a shed load of money IMHO.
Thames Valley Police used to (or perhaps still do) give you the opportunity to take the points+fine as normal OR pay the fine & do a Police drivers course where they teach you the dangers of speeding in an attempt to slow you down. I know which I'd prefer, I only wish more forces offered the latter option.
gregwatson said:
6. How long is this nightmare going to go on? When the day comes when every road has cameras or speed is constantly tracked via GPS, what the hell are we going to do????
I'll purposefully not go there in case I say something I shouldn't (or that can later be relied upon in a court of law)!!!
What about getting caught by the laser whilst overtaking?? 
I was caught by the camera van man 
last week at 77mph overtaking a lorry going downhill and speeding up. Had to get past and was in the middle of overtaking when my Road Angel flashed "MOBILE!!!" 
and frightend the life out of me. Any chance of appeal do you think? 
I was caught by the camera van man last week at 77mph overtaking a lorry going downhill and speeding up. Had to get past and was in the middle of overtaking when my Road Angel flashed "MOBILE!!!" and frightend the life out of me. Any chance of appeal do you think? What was limit on that stretch of road? I assume it was a 60mph or they wouldnt have bothered. Problem with arguing over that is they might decide to push it and argue you were overtaking without due care and attention and add another 3 points. Must admit though I'd be tempted to appeal for that one. You never know you might catch them on a good day :-)
Well_Fans said:
What was limit on that stretch of road? I assume it was a 60mph or they wouldnt have bothered. Problem with arguing over that is they might decide to push it and argue you were overtaking without due care and attention and add another 3 points. Must admit though I'd be tempted to appeal for that one. You never know you might catch them on a good day :-)
Yes it was 60. Only problem with contesting it is the cost of getting to the court! I wonder if you can argue by post?
On what basis would you appeal?
It was a 60mph limit and you were doing 77mph, I can't see what defence you could give. Just because you were overtaking doesn't mean you can drive at whatever speed you want.
Sounds like I am getting on my high horse, but just being the voice of reason
It was a 60mph limit and you were doing 77mph, I can't see what defence you could give. Just because you were overtaking doesn't mean you can drive at whatever speed you want.
Sounds like I am getting on my high horse, but just being the voice of reason
Bundaberg said:
Will pop over to N. Ireland & take a test there cos then u get issued a seperate license, i know several ppl who done this & keep 1 clean & put points on the other
Dont count on it. I think most loopholes have been closed.
I'm pretty sure that you can even get points for motoring ofences on Southern Ireland on a UK license.
And I have never seen a highly visible speed check in my life. They are all sneaky c**ts, despite that being illegal.
Speed cameras are just too black & white, when my late wife was in the final stages of her terminal illness i was called to the hospice caring for her @ 3am i went thru a speed camera in a 40mph zone @ 55mph tried to argue it in court but was told by the beak that the law is the law no excuses so 3 points & £60 later i was fuming yet a few weeks late the same happenned but i was stopped by traffic cops doing 78 in a 30 zone told him where i was going & next thing i know he's giving me an escort with bells & whistles doing close to 90mph thru Colchester town centre
GSI_Daz said:
On what basis would you appeal?
It was a 60mph limit and you were doing 77mph, I can't see what defence you could give. Just because you were overtaking doesn't mean you can drive at whatever speed you want.
Sounds like I am getting on my high horse, but just being the voice of reason
Voice of reason maybe Daz but if we follow that line of thought, what a lot of crashes there would be. You have to overtake at x mph more to get by what you are passing. If we all overtook vehicles at 60 when they are doing 50 we need longer roads and less traffic than we've got in the UK! High powered cars rule for safe overtaking!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> Edited by V6 JDT on Tuesday 17th January 20:39
Well_Fans said:
going back a few years I seem to recall there was an allowance made for overtaking whereby you had a quarter mile to perform the manouever and get back down to speed however I may just be talking a load of bolloks.
An ex copper pal of mine told me something like this and that's where I am coming from. Just can't remember what he said
Have to give him a bell for some info!
Just in case anyone isn't aware of the SpeedSafe campaign - they could do with donations to keep fighting the good fight. SafeSpeed appeal
I've been wondering what I can do to try and fight inappropriate use of speed cameras and restore some common sense. Short of offering to pay everyone's fines if they take their NIPs to court - which would probably kill the whole nonsense stone dead in a few months (unfortunately I'd have to be very wealthy to do that!) I would think the safespeed people are as good a way of contributing as anything.
So if anyone hasn't made a donation it might be worth considering??
>> Edited by gregwatson on Sunday 22 January 20:14
I've been wondering what I can do to try and fight inappropriate use of speed cameras and restore some common sense. Short of offering to pay everyone's fines if they take their NIPs to court - which would probably kill the whole nonsense stone dead in a few months (unfortunately I'd have to be very wealthy to do that!) I would think the safespeed people are as good a way of contributing as anything.
So if anyone hasn't made a donation it might be worth considering??
>> Edited by gregwatson on Sunday 22 January 20:14
Background
Over the past 4 years I’ve used most of the options available to combat fines/points inc asking for photos, calibration certificates, appearing in court myself, having professional representation, not signing forms, using the “pool car” & company car excuse, photographing the event my self, the list goes on.
Success
This has varied each time, however as time goes on the PCP & the police have realised that the public are much better at avoiding gatsos, so they have changed their efforts to mobile laser guns, I have also noticed that the forms keep getting updated to include more stuff about calibration certificates , photo’s company cars etc etc so they are constantly cutting back your excuse options!
Trends
Hereford & Worc ( inc Kidderminster etc ) just love the laser gun!!, what they do is use plain cars & vans, hide behind corners & bushes etc even the bonnet of their own vehicle and get you at the last second, the reasons are this;
If you have a laser detector in your window and the car is less than say 30ft from them, if they point at your No. plate;
1, you don’t have time to react.
2, the laser beam is too narrow to set your screen detector off.
Summery
Now you might say this is sneaky & and underhand and by law they must show a sign say ¼ of a mile ahead or be in a visible “marked vehicle” etc etc, but they know the circumstances are usually your word against theirs in court, and that you would need to go to great lengths to proof this ( which is in the eye of the courts subjective anyway )
So we are up against “ sniper “ style tacticians who know that they are operating outside the law but also know that ultimately the law is on their side, as lets face it they are agents of that law!!
What is needed is more people proving their particular circumstance in court, ( as I do ), this wastes court time and costs the court money!, so ultimately the system would have to be addressed or changed, and the police’s underhand tactics would be exposed.
Maybe these guys ( SafeSpeed appeal ) need more support ??
I would be interested to hear of anyone who has used the “European humanity card” either successfully or not ?
Over the past 4 years I’ve used most of the options available to combat fines/points inc asking for photos, calibration certificates, appearing in court myself, having professional representation, not signing forms, using the “pool car” & company car excuse, photographing the event my self, the list goes on.
Success
This has varied each time, however as time goes on the PCP & the police have realised that the public are much better at avoiding gatsos, so they have changed their efforts to mobile laser guns, I have also noticed that the forms keep getting updated to include more stuff about calibration certificates , photo’s company cars etc etc so they are constantly cutting back your excuse options!
Trends
Hereford & Worc ( inc Kidderminster etc ) just love the laser gun!!, what they do is use plain cars & vans, hide behind corners & bushes etc even the bonnet of their own vehicle and get you at the last second, the reasons are this;
If you have a laser detector in your window and the car is less than say 30ft from them, if they point at your No. plate;
1, you don’t have time to react.
2, the laser beam is too narrow to set your screen detector off.
Summery
Now you might say this is sneaky & and underhand and by law they must show a sign say ¼ of a mile ahead or be in a visible “marked vehicle” etc etc, but they know the circumstances are usually your word against theirs in court, and that you would need to go to great lengths to proof this ( which is in the eye of the courts subjective anyway )
So we are up against “ sniper “ style tacticians who know that they are operating outside the law but also know that ultimately the law is on their side, as lets face it they are agents of that law!!
What is needed is more people proving their particular circumstance in court, ( as I do ), this wastes court time and costs the court money!, so ultimately the system would have to be addressed or changed, and the police’s underhand tactics would be exposed.
Maybe these guys ( SafeSpeed appeal ) need more support ??
I would be interested to hear of anyone who has used the “European humanity card” either successfully or not ?
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