Nurburgring - hard on brakes / tyres?
Discussion
I feel brakes have a much much easier time at ring vs uk tracks, all to do with long high speed little braking sections & few massive speed loss sections (in slow ish car) BUT all depends on driver & the car & how hard you go on track & at 'ring.
But for me & the stuff I use- I guestimate pads last approx 5 times longer in mileage at 'ring than Uk track days in a similar driving style.
Tyres, similar, tho wear in slightly odd way on o/s which I put down to the karassel.
>> Edited by iguana on Tuesday 18th April 10:32
But for me & the stuff I use- I guestimate pads last approx 5 times longer in mileage at 'ring than Uk track days in a similar driving style.
Tyres, similar, tho wear in slightly odd way on o/s which I put down to the karassel.
>> Edited by iguana on Tuesday 18th April 10:32
You may have less overall brake wear at the NS than you would do at the typical UK circuit, but on the run down to Wehrseifen, with hard braking points at Metzgesfeld 2, Kallenhard, a bit at M-H-M, and then entry to Wehr., you can momentarily run out of brakes, which will induce a straight-into-the-armco shot at maybe 80 mph. So although cumulative wear is not an issue, brake performance is critical.
Regarding tyre wear, agreed that you lose as much tread at the NS as elsewhere.
If you're getting extreme wear on inside of O/S rear, that is probably caused by Ex-Muhle. That one spot is the hardest on diffs.
In Ferry Porsche's autobiography he even singles out E-M for the stress it put on diffs during German GPs in the '30s.
Regarding tyre wear, agreed that you lose as much tread at the NS as elsewhere.
If you're getting extreme wear on inside of O/S rear, that is probably caused by Ex-Muhle. That one spot is the hardest on diffs.
In Ferry Porsche's autobiography he even singles out E-M for the stress it put on diffs during German GPs in the '30s.
I found tread wear on my Eagle F1's to be very good (as in low wear rate). The track is mainly a smooth racing surface which is in very good condition. Tread wear rate will also depend on how you drive the track... if you're smooth then you'll get good tread wear... if you're all over the place screeching left right and centre then tread wear rate will increase.
Same goes for the brakes... smooth gradual braking will see pads last ages... violent last minute braking will see pad wear go through the roof... as with any track really.
Same goes for the brakes... smooth gradual braking will see pads last ages... violent last minute braking will see pad wear go through the roof... as with any track really.
AJI said:
The track is mainly a smooth racing surface which is in very good condition.
Not sure I'd agree with that....
AJI said:
smooth gradual braking will see pads last ages... violent last minute braking will see pad wear go through the roof...
Not sure I'd agree with that either.....
IMHO Brakes should be used as hard and for as short a time as possible. Smooth gradual braking could well see you boil your brakes.
davyboy said:Davy's right on both points.
The track is mainly a smooth racing surface which is in very good condition.
Not sure I'd agree with that....
AJI said:
smooth gradual braking will see pads last ages... violent last minute braking will see pad wear go through the roof...
Not sure I'd agree with that either.....
IMHO Brakes should be used as hard and for as short a time as possible. Smooth gradual braking could well see you boil your brakes.
r5gttgaz said:
How rough is it round the Nurburgring? I saw Walter Rohl doing some Porsche Testing laps and he said that to lap really fast it was important to know where the bumps are.
You have to remember the concept of Herr Rohl driving 'fast' around the 'Ring, is very different to someone who has less than say 100 laps driving 'fast' around the ring. If you are a development/test driver and have driven numerous WRC type cars and supercars and help provide chassis engineers with feedback, you will probably notice bumps more than the 'average' driver. Personally, I be more concerned with the subtle camber changes on the exit of several bends, which is far more likely to catch you out.
eg. 1) exit of uphill left-right flick before hohe acht
2) exit of uphill 90 degree right hander following wiperman
3) exit of Brunchen 2
4) right hand corner before banked left hander leading on to quidellbacher-hohe, etc, etc
I think a general respect for the track, and sensible exploratory laps are a good protocol to follow, rather than learning Walter Rohl's intimate track knowledge for a first time. (I am assuming you are a first timer from your questions about the circuit. Apologies if this isn't the case).
If it's wet or damp, take it very easy. A several wrecked vehicles and untimely deaths this last weekend will testify to that.
As a further aside, driving with your lights on aids the visibility of your car to others, and other people's cars to you. Try and glance in your mirrors every 5 secs or so, so you can *anticipate* a car approaching quickly, thereby minimising the surprise/panic element for you, and also letting the other driver pass with little interuption to their lap - everyone's a winner.
This last w/e, there was once again, some very poor driving in terms of anticipation of other vehicles or very aggressive/dangerous drivng. Sadly, most of what I witnessed was by UK drivers in turbocharged cars (aka scoobys & cossies - guys, spend £1000 on driver training instead of '4 bar boost' turbos and you will get far more out of your driving experience)
Everything that Fergus says makes sense.
I would add that there are a few places where is it quite bumpy in the braking zone and if you're going quickly and braking just a bit off-line those bumps can cause a big problem.
These places would include entrances to Aremberg, Metzgesfeld, and Schwalbenschwanz.
In some other places, rather than a series of bumps, you will have a single bump or crest and if you are on the brakes they will either lock or the back end will go light and again you can get into trouble. These places include T13, Schwedenkreuz and Pflanzgarten 1.
For most of the circuit you are either bumping around or the weight is shifting front-to-back or side-to-side.
That's the fun of it.
I would add that there are a few places where is it quite bumpy in the braking zone and if you're going quickly and braking just a bit off-line those bumps can cause a big problem.
These places would include entrances to Aremberg, Metzgesfeld, and Schwalbenschwanz.
In some other places, rather than a series of bumps, you will have a single bump or crest and if you are on the brakes they will either lock or the back end will go light and again you can get into trouble. These places include T13, Schwedenkreuz and Pflanzgarten 1.
For most of the circuit you are either bumping around or the weight is shifting front-to-back or side-to-side.
That's the fun of it.
davyboy - when I was there last year the track was in good condition... has it broken up since last june? I know places like the karousel are rough but the majority of the track from what I remember is smooth and kind to tyres. And it will obviously depend on how hard you are driving your car, I know your not disputing that point but I thought I'd re-itterate it as I think this will be the biggest factor in tyre/brake pad (or disc) wear rate.
And from the guys original question he's on about brake wear... not boiling points of brake fluid. Smooth gradual braking as opposed to hard last second braking will see your pads last longer IMO. If you take both circumstances where the car has to loose the same amount of kinetic energy for corner entry then if you're braking last second the pads/discs have to reach a higher temperature due to the shorter time to transfer k.e. to heat. This repeated process will wear pads/discs faster.
Not saying drive like your grandma, but don't be tempted to drive right to the limits of your car... because this will indeed go through pads/discs/tread like there's no tomorrow.
And from the guys original question he's on about brake wear... not boiling points of brake fluid. Smooth gradual braking as opposed to hard last second braking will see your pads last longer IMO. If you take both circumstances where the car has to loose the same amount of kinetic energy for corner entry then if you're braking last second the pads/discs have to reach a higher temperature due to the shorter time to transfer k.e. to heat. This repeated process will wear pads/discs faster.
Not saying drive like your grandma, but don't be tempted to drive right to the limits of your car... because this will indeed go through pads/discs/tread like there's no tomorrow.
AJI said:It does indeed depend on how hard you push the car. I've gone through a set of P. Corsas in fourteen laps, so I'm not sure that the NS is particularly kind to tyres.
davyboy - when I was there last year the track was in good condition... has it broken up since last june? I know places like the karousel are rough but the majority of the track from what I remember is smooth and kind to tyres. And it will obviously depend on how hard you are driving your car, I know your not disputing that point but I thought I'd re-itterate it as I think this will be the biggest factor in tyre/brake pad (or disc) wear rate.
There are about 80 changes of surface in a lap, so we're talking about wear on average; one can't say that "the tarmac is this or that", because there is no example of "the" tarmac.
With respect to whether the surface is "smooth", well, without a shadow of a doubt the NS is bumpier than Brands, Silverstone, Oulton, Donington, Castle Combe, Thruxton, Snetterton, Bedford, and, and...
You could say that the NS is smoother than a forest stage of the Rally of GB, but I didn't think that was davy's point of reference.
Over the winter they smoothed out some of the bumps in Schwed., Fuchsr., and Pflanzg. At the same time, the hard weather seems to have made Hatz. and Metzg. bumpier.
AJI said:Yes, davyboy is on about brake wear. If you boil the fluid, I do believe that's wear & tear - at least in the sense that your brakes cease to work! In any case, I should think it might be helpful, when on the subject of brakes, to point out to someone a braking-capacity issue that could make a difference to whether he puts his car into the armco, as so many drivers have done in that place and for that reason already.
And from the guys original question he's on about brake wear... not boiling points of brake fluid. Smooth gradual braking as opposed to hard last second braking will see your pads last longer IMO. If you take both circumstances where the car has to loose the same amount of kinetic energy for corner entry then if you're braking last second the pads/discs have to reach a higher temperature due to the shorter time to transfer k.e. to heat. This repeated process will wear pads/discs faster.
As for whether it is kinder on brakes to go from X speed to Y speed by short, sharp braking or by slower, extended braking, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Cheers.
Flemke's talking about the braking action, not the ideal working temp for the pads! A short, sharp, almost ABS triggering pedal application, on a net basis puts less heat into the brakes than a road car style application of the brakes, and hence gives all associated components in the system less chance to degrade, i.e. fluid boiling, hoses expanding (assuming they're not braided). A hard pedal with no retardation is more worrying and requires a harder pad.....
I'm not sure I follow. If you look at the physics of braking then to go from X speed down to Y speed you need to convert the relevant k.e. into heat via the friction force of the discs and pads. (That maybe a vice versa way of looking at it but in essense that is what is happening).
In simplistic form : Force = mass x acceleration.
F=ma (one of Newton's laws)
If you are deccellerating at a faster rate (as with the case of a short harder stab on the brake) then the value of 'a' increases.... and therefore so does the value of 'F' (the force). If you are putting more force onto the pads and discs this causes more wear (in simplistic terms that is).
Now where I don't have the technical knowledge is of disc and pad materials as this may or may not be beneficial to the logevity of the components under these different methods of braking. ie. do modern pads 'wear' faster at lower temps? or do they wear faster at higher temps under the same braking force?
I do know that when I'm racing in my Formula Ford that when I feel my brakes starting to fade or 'go off' then I brake earlier and for longer with slightly less pressure on the pedal. And this gets me to the end of the race.
Point accepted on the brake fluid, I agree... this can be considered a factor of wear on the brakes.
I appologise for taking this thread off topic.
In simplistic form : Force = mass x acceleration.
F=ma (one of Newton's laws)
If you are deccellerating at a faster rate (as with the case of a short harder stab on the brake) then the value of 'a' increases.... and therefore so does the value of 'F' (the force). If you are putting more force onto the pads and discs this causes more wear (in simplistic terms that is).
Now where I don't have the technical knowledge is of disc and pad materials as this may or may not be beneficial to the logevity of the components under these different methods of braking. ie. do modern pads 'wear' faster at lower temps? or do they wear faster at higher temps under the same braking force?
I do know that when I'm racing in my Formula Ford that when I feel my brakes starting to fade or 'go off' then I brake earlier and for longer with slightly less pressure on the pedal. And this gets me to the end of the race.
Point accepted on the brake fluid, I agree... this can be considered a factor of wear on the brakes.
I appologise for taking this thread off topic.
AJI said:
I'm not sure I follow. If you look at the physics of braking
therein lies part of the problem. you dont understand the physics.
accelerating a mass from one speed to another requires the same amount of energy regardless of the time taken. the energy transfered as heat to the brakes (simply) is the difference in kinetic energy (DELTA of 0.5mv^2) from before to after, time doesnt matter. ignoring heat dissipation from the disks and assuming both brakes were the same temperature in the first place, a car slowing from x to y in time t will have exactly the same temperature brakes as that slowing from x to y in time 2t.
in practice if 2 cars are lapping in the same time the car braking later and harder will have cooler brakes because thay are cooling for a longer period of the lap. furthermore the pad is in contact for less time so you transfer less heat from the disk to the pads/fluid.
>> Edited by francisb on Tuesday 18th April 15:24
AJI said:
In simplistic form : Force = mass x acceleration.
F=ma (one of Newton's laws)
If you are deccellerating at a faster rate (as with the case of a short harder stab on the brake) then the value of 'a' increases.... and therefore so does the value of 'F' (the force). If you are putting more force onto the pads and discs this causes more wear (in simplistic terms that is).
That's too simplistic. Indeed, more heat energy is being generated over the short point of time, but bear in mind that for a longer braking zone, the force is being applied over a greater period of time. This enables the heat to soak through the pad/piston/fluid more easily.
AJI said:
I do know that when I'm racing in my Formula Ford that when I feel my brakes starting to fade or 'go off' then I brake earlier and for longer with slightly less pressure on the pedal. And this gets me to the end of the race.
This is because you are going slower, allowing the passing air to cool the components more efficiently.
To take this even more off-topic: If your brakes are fading in a FFord then something is very wrong!
r5gttgaz said:
How rough is it round the Nurburgring? I saw Walter Rohl doing some Porsche Testing laps and he said that to lap really fast it was important to know where the bumps are.
Its totally dependent on what type of car & how hard you are pushing.
For a novice in a regular saloon its smooth as silk, to a full on racer who knows it well- in say a GT3Rs its perhaps not!
I personally think its not too bad, waay waay better than a UK b road, & more akin to decently surfaced uk minor A roads & a complient track set up that works on most of the Uk small tracks- Cadwell, Oulton etc & esp Coombe which is quite bumpy will IMHO work fine there in the dry- wet softer is obviously always better. Oh and if youve ever driven Hethel- esp the back straight then the 'ring is smooth as glass in comparison.
>> Edited by iguana on Tuesday 18th April 15:24
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