Motorway 'Dangerous Driving' Speeding
Discussion
When does the 'Dangerous Driving' charge become applicable in competent m'way driving. Is there an arbitrary figure e.g. 110 at a guess?
I really must slow down. Nowadays...clear m'way in good conditions (between the junctions and obo points) I'm into 120-130. Always slow down when in sight of traffic, obviously if only lane 3 is clear I slow down to allow for lane 2 swappers etc etc.
Stupid, but I'm prepared for the consequences, ban etc. But is this dangerous driving/ custodial territory?
I really must slow down. Nowadays...clear m'way in good conditions (between the junctions and obo points) I'm into 120-130. Always slow down when in sight of traffic, obviously if only lane 3 is clear I slow down to allow for lane 2 swappers etc etc.
Stupid, but I'm prepared for the consequences, ban etc. But is this dangerous driving/ custodial territory?
I believe the CPS has pressed for "Dangerous Driving" at these sort of speeds.
I believe that in some cases its been thrown out by the beak as "speed in and of itself does not constitute a lack of care" or some such quote.
More knowledgeable people than me will, no doubt, be along in a mo' with more accurate info.
Personally I would view a speed differential of greater than 20-25mph with the flow of traffic to be dangerous. Which is why I've only made big speeds at 4:30am of a Summer morning with absolutely no other traffic around (i.e. literally can't see any).
How fast those speeds were I will leave to your imagination...
I believe that in some cases its been thrown out by the beak as "speed in and of itself does not constitute a lack of care" or some such quote.
More knowledgeable people than me will, no doubt, be along in a mo' with more accurate info.
Personally I would view a speed differential of greater than 20-25mph with the flow of traffic to be dangerous. Which is why I've only made big speeds at 4:30am of a Summer morning with absolutely no other traffic around (i.e. literally can't see any).
How fast those speeds were I will leave to your imagination...
There's no level at which speed per se becomes dangerous driving. Dangerous driving is assessed on the twin standard of:-
i) The driver falling far below the standard expected of a careful and competent driver
and
ii) That such driving would be obvious to a careful and competent driver as dangerous.
As such the offence takes into account all the circumstances of the situation, which might reasonably be known to the driver (and this includes defects in his vehicle not known to him). The English Courts are very reluctant to convict for DD on grounds of speed alone, although the Scottish courts took a similar charge (reckless conduct?) for a speed only biker and PC Milton still faces a DD charge for driving which was said to be very fast, but safe at all times by some expert witnesses.
Where they get these careful and competent drivers from is anyone's guess...
i) The driver falling far below the standard expected of a careful and competent driver
and
ii) That such driving would be obvious to a careful and competent driver as dangerous.
As such the offence takes into account all the circumstances of the situation, which might reasonably be known to the driver (and this includes defects in his vehicle not known to him). The English Courts are very reluctant to convict for DD on grounds of speed alone, although the Scottish courts took a similar charge (reckless conduct?) for a speed only biker and PC Milton still faces a DD charge for driving which was said to be very fast, but safe at all times by some expert witnesses.
Where they get these careful and competent drivers from is anyone's guess...
Don said:
Personally I would view a speed differential of greater than 20-25mph with the flow of traffic to be dangerous.
In my opinion the lack of speed differentials caused by indiscriminate enforcement and everyone trundling along at the limit that leave one exposed to travelling alongside another vehicle for several tens of seconds is a real rsik. But 20-25mile/h differential dangerous ? surely not. Don, if you overtake a slow mover starting at 35, in most decent performance cars you will be doing 55 or 60+ before pulling in clear of the slower vehicle - thats safe not dangerous.
Richard C said:
Personally I would view a speed differential of greater than 20-25mph with the flow of traffic to be dangerous.
In my opinion the lack of speed differentials caused by indiscriminate enforcement and everyone trundling along at the limit that leave one exposed to travelling alongside another vehicle for several tens of seconds is a real rsik. But 20-25mile/h differential dangerous ? surely not. Don, if you overtake a slow mover starting at 35, in most decent performance cars you will be doing 55 or 60+ before pulling in clear of the slower vehicle - thats safe not dangerous.
Yes I think I agree with that. I have sometimes passed other traffic with quite a large speed differential but it very much depends on what type of traffic I am overtaking, and how much I trust them, having watched them carefully as I approach.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Richard C said:
Personally I would view a speed differential of greater than 20-25mph with the flow of traffic to be dangerous.
In my opinion the lack of speed differentials caused by indiscriminate enforcement and everyone trundling along at the limit that leave one exposed to travelling alongside another vehicle for several tens of seconds is a real rsik. But 20-25mile/h differential dangerous ? surely not. Don, if you overtake a slow mover starting at 35, in most decent performance cars you will be doing 55 or 60+ before pulling in clear of the slower vehicle - thats safe not dangerous.
Here lies the road to ruin, if we keep reducing things to a finite limit then our abilities to read situations will become stunted, we will take it for granted that it is safe to pull out without looking etc. Limits are black and white driving isn't
Richard C said:
Personally I would view a speed differential of greater than 20-25mph with the flow of traffic to be dangerous.
In my opinion the lack of speed differentials caused by indiscriminate enforcement and everyone trundling along at the limit that leave one exposed to travelling alongside another vehicle for several tens of seconds is a real rsik. But 20-25mile/h differential dangerous ? surely not. Don, if you overtake a slow mover starting at 35, in most decent performance cars you will be doing 55 or 60+ before pulling in clear of the slower vehicle - thats safe not dangerous.
The difference here is that the driver at 35 can reasonably expect others to pass them at ~60/70 (up to the limit), so the duty of care is (or at least should be) with the slow driver in that instance. The situation is totally different if the 'slower' driver already at 70 (at the limit); because of the current state of our law, they can reasonably expect not to be passed at such great speed differentials and may act accordingly.
smeggy said:
The difference here is that the driver at 35 can reasonably expect others to pass them at ~60/70 (up to the limit), so the duty of care is (or at least should be) with the slow driver in that instance. The situation is totally different if the 'slower' driver already at 70 (at the limit); because of the current state of our law, they can reasonably expect not to be passed at such great speed differentials and may act accordingly.
absolutely, if you're hooning you have the duty of care
7db said:
[...so the duty of care is (or at least should be) with the slow driver in that instance....
I think *both* drivers should, and indeed do, have a duty of care to one another.
Sure they have, I think the distinction is, when I am giving it some I expect someone to pull out on me because they do not expect anyone to be driving faster than 70mph (the reasons behind this have been exhausted on other threads)
baz1985 said:
When does the 'Dangerous Driving' charge become applicable in
competent m'way driving. Is there an arbitrary figure
Yes.
AFAIK 100 mph.
Coppers will often try to tell you that DD will be considered
for lesser speeds.
Up to 96 mph, FPN and sixty quid, over 96 mph it's court.
Over 100 mph it's *automatic* dangerous driving.
Odd that - I've done tens of thousands of miles at 130 mph and
above and about the only thing that's happened is that
I've got there a lot faster and once I had a flat tyre.
dcb said:
When does the 'Dangerous Driving' charge become applicable in
competent m'way driving. Is there an arbitrary figure
Yes.
AFAIK 100 mph.
Coppers will often try to tell you that DD will be considered
for lesser speeds.
Up to 96 mph, FPN and sixty quid, over 96 mph it's court.
Over 100 mph it's *automatic* dangerous driving.
Odd that - I've done tens of thousands of miles at 130 mph and
above and about the only thing that's happened is that
I've got there a lot faster and once I had a flat tyre.
We don't have maximum limits set for individuals though, they are set for the collective.
Proved this very day that any differential can be dangerous - depends on the OTHER driver and their actions. Approaching a roundabout off a motorway slip two lanes. 4x4 with caravan in left lane me in right lane differential about 10MPH , me slowing on approach. Caravan indicating left then swings into my lane - so that'll be right then ! - just as I was drawing level. Big braking saved the day. On closer inspection having followed him around 3 roundabouts I noticed that:
1. No extended mirrors + wide caravan = no rear vis
2. No brake lights on caravan or 4x4
3. Indicators reverse wired - so he indicates right his left indicator goes on
Lucky for him I was not inclined to waste time or there might have been words.
1. No extended mirrors + wide caravan = no rear vis
2. No brake lights on caravan or 4x4
3. Indicators reverse wired - so he indicates right his left indicator goes on
Lucky for him I was not inclined to waste time or there might have been words.
dcb said:
When does the 'Dangerous Driving' charge become applicable in
competent m'way driving. Is there an arbitrary figure
Yes.
AFAIK 100 mph.
Coppers will often try to tell you that DD will be considered
for lesser speeds.
Up to 96 mph, FPN and sixty quid, over 96 mph it's court.
Over 100 mph it's *automatic* dangerous driving.
AIUI it prosecutors have often brought a dangerous driving charge based simply on the speed, but we seem to have had some cases where courts have thrown out the dangerous driving element and simply gone with the speeding bit. That at least has been a welcome development. The next move should be to do away with the notion of speeding - at least in NSL areas - being a punishable offence!
Meanwhile vigilance folks, and the best of luck. Good evening Von.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
7db said:
[...so the duty of care is (or at least should be) with the slow driver in that instance....
I think *both* drivers should, and indeed do, have a duty of care to one another.
You're right, that came out wrong. I mean to say that in that instance the slow driver can expect to be passed at significant differential speeds so it is up to them to judge the situation correctly before proceeding with any manoeuvre. This is exactly the same when there're at 0mph (differential up to 70mph - i.e. pulling out); there's only so much the faster driver can do (or plan for) in that instance.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff