Stealth Speed Limit Reductions
Discussion
Last Saturday I returned from a two-week holiday, only to find that there have been another round of surreptitious speed limit reductions around West Yorkshire.
My particular favourite was a dual carriageway connecting to the M1. Last time I was in the area the limit on the road in question was 50mph which, as a highways engineer, I found particularly surprising as it's one of the highest standard urban dual carriageways that I've seen! But apparently there's some hidden but finely quantifiable danger, because it's warranted a further 10mph reduction to 40mph limit. It's very strange that it should be safe at 40mph but not at 50mph, even though the alignment of the road seems to be suitable for national.
Does anyone know what the process is for implementing these reductions, and how they determine an appropriate speed? Or do they just wing it?
My particular favourite was a dual carriageway connecting to the M1. Last time I was in the area the limit on the road in question was 50mph which, as a highways engineer, I found particularly surprising as it's one of the highest standard urban dual carriageways that I've seen! But apparently there's some hidden but finely quantifiable danger, because it's warranted a further 10mph reduction to 40mph limit. It's very strange that it should be safe at 40mph but not at 50mph, even though the alignment of the road seems to be suitable for national.
Does anyone know what the process is for implementing these reductions, and how they determine an appropriate speed? Or do they just wing it?
Edited by Andrew D on Friday 4th August 10:55
I think the justification goes something like this. A survey is done, the conclusion is, "Look at all the people exceeding the limit, that's very dangerous we'll have to reduce the limit." Then another survey is done some time after the limit has been changed and the conclusion is the same, "Look at all the people exceeding the limit, that's very dangerous we'll have to reduce the limit." <repeats> 
Based on some of the limits I've seen in place, I doubt the analysis done prior to changing the limit there would stand up to any kind of scrutiny, in a good number of cases.
Steve.
Based on some of the limits I've seen in place, I doubt the analysis done prior to changing the limit there would stand up to any kind of scrutiny, in a good number of cases.
Steve.
Edited by Steve_T on Friday 4th August 11:07
Andrew D said:
Last Saturday I returned from a two-week holiday, only to find that there have been another round of surreptitious speed limit reductions around West Yorkshire.
My particular favourite was a dual carriageway connecting to the M1. Last time I was in the area the limit on the road in question was 50mph which, as a highways engineer, I found particularly surprising as it's one of the highest standard urban dual carriageways that I've seen! But apparently there's some hidden but finely quantifiable danger, because it's warranted a further 10mph reduction to 40mph limit. It's very strange that it should be safe at 40mph but not at 50mph, even though the alignment of the road seems to be suitable for national.
Does anyone know what the process is for implementing these reductions, and how they determine an appropriate speed? Or do they just wing it?
My particular favourite was a dual carriageway connecting to the M1. Last time I was in the area the limit on the road in question was 50mph which, as a highways engineer, I found particularly surprising as it's one of the highest standard urban dual carriageways that I've seen! But apparently there's some hidden but finely quantifiable danger, because it's warranted a further 10mph reduction to 40mph limit. It's very strange that it should be safe at 40mph but not at 50mph, even though the alignment of the road seems to be suitable for national.
Does anyone know what the process is for implementing these reductions, and how they determine an appropriate speed? Or do they just wing it?
Edited by Andrew D on Friday 4th August 10:55
Andrew, over the past few years I have defended or helped to defend numerous people accused of speeding on the M80/Stepps Bypass from Glasgow to Stirling.
This road is probably one of the finest in the country with a virtually perfect surface, excellent vision, Shell non-slip on banked curves. The only criticism I have is that in true Scottish style it is only two lanes instead of three.
Since it's opening it has had a 50MPH limit, the result being that almost nobody stays at that, it is simply silly and unrealistic to impose that kind of limit on this road; except for one thing.
It utterly guarantees a high degree of speeding convictions, and the BiB have a field day with unmarked cars, although they have backed off recently due to the number of complaints about pointless enforcement.
Amongst those caught was a Chief Super from one of the Glasgow stations and she was charged with travelling at 70 MPH, the NSL, in a police vehicle.
I offered to defend her for nothing, seeing it as an opportunity to highlight the sheer stupidity of a situation like that and have the limit changed.
I was told in the appropriately politically correct manner that she would not be defending herself and that "excessive speed was a major factor in all traffic accidents. The CS deeply regretted her momentary lapse of concentration".
In all of these cases I have written to the DTi, the Scottish Executive, the main Traffic Office, and the Council, asking for a technical explanation as to why the limit was set so low.
I have only ever had a post card acknowledging receipt of my letters.
Not one entity will accept responsibility for either setting the limit or justifying why it should be so low.
The only individual who had a stab at explaining it was a Chief Inspector who I know in the local traffic division who said he thought the Council determined the limit by the number of dwelling houses in the area.
If there is any truth in this it is simply beyond comment.
puggit said:
The process is that a few non-driving leftie councillors sit in a darkened chamber and randomly decide from which safe roads they need to drop the speed limit on.
There is no rhyme or reason!
I'd say that it's a bit different from that. There is no rhyme or reason!
Their aim plainly is to drop the speed limit on every road in the UK.
The limit reductions that one sees today are simply the ones that they have got around to so far.
So much to do, so little time...
we actually had a speed limit put back to what it was not so long ago.
they put a set of traffic lights on a junction about a mile out of town, and decided to drop the limit from the towns 30mph zone to the new lights to 40mph. bear in mind that this was a NSL 'A'road, dead straight, with just one house on it.
amazingly after about 6 months of this madness the limit has been put back up to 60 mph!
they put a set of traffic lights on a junction about a mile out of town, and decided to drop the limit from the towns 30mph zone to the new lights to 40mph. bear in mind that this was a NSL 'A'road, dead straight, with just one house on it.
amazingly after about 6 months of this madness the limit has been put back up to 60 mph!
Steve_T said:
I think the justification goes something like this. A survey is done, the conclusion is, "Look at all the people exceeding the limit, that's very dangerous we'll have to reduce the limit." Then another survey is done some time after the limit has been changed and the conclusion is the same, "Look at all the people exceeding the limit, that's very dangerous we'll have to reduce the limit." <repeats>
I think it’s actually the opposite of what you describe.
Speed limit surveys are routine. This would involve laying down temporary speed measuring pressure strips across the road (or an operator with some sort of device…….think about it…… ) measuring the speed of traffic. These methods are usually visible to motorists; most won’t be sure of what’s going on so they’ll play it safe and slow down – and then some – to ensure they are within the speed limit (just like at camera sites…… ). Combine that with over-reading speedos and you get a traffic flow that’s well below the limit for that road. The powers that be will interpret that as “the motorists must think it’s dangerous to drive at that speed limit” hence the downward adjustment. The new limit gives the SCPs something to do
A cunning subtlety: these downward trends also skews the distinction between accidents involving inappropriate speed (within the speed limit) and exceeding the speed limit, seemingly giving further justification to the existence of SCPs.
Edited by smeggy on Friday 4th August 13:34
Andrew D said:
Does anyone know what the process is for implementing these reductions, and how they determine an appropriate speed? Or do they just wing it?
They look and see what a safe and appropriate speed would be. They look at confirm that most motorists are travelling around that sort of speed. They then set the limit 20-30mph under this speed, and introduce a tax generator.
Pretty sure it is a council decision made on whatever basis they feel like, AFAIK the police can only advise. However, given that it is a Council decision can this not be taken up with your local councillar? Even if intially to find out what the decision process is. Once known you know who to lobby.
Rob
P.S. Could the press not be involved? Maybe SafeSpeed would know who to talk to?
Rob
P.S. Could the press not be involved? Maybe SafeSpeed would know who to talk to?
jith said:
The only individual who had a stab at explaining it was a Chief Inspector who I know in the local traffic division who said he thought the Council determined the limit by the number of dwelling houses in the area.
If there is any truth in this it is simply beyond comment.
If there are dwellings in close proximity, could it have been set at 50 for noise reasons? Vehicle noise increases exponentially with speed.
More generally, almost everyone who lives on the semi-rural A roads in Cheshire is trying to get the limit past their front door dropped to 60. Very few cases are approved (they look for a strong history of speed releated KSI's), and there's always much anger and dismay from local residents who can't get their limits reduced 'just because we haven't had 3 people killed yet'.
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