944 S2 Replacement ball joints
Discussion
In preperation for tomorrows MOT I've removed the front wishbone from my 1991 S2 to have a look at the bottom ball joint that was having the odd clunk now and again.
I've already replaced the other side, with which I used one of the available ball joint kits to replace the knackered one (incidentally the kit was useless, having the incorrect sized circlips and boot, I had to cannibalise the old one).
In removing this side I've found the ball unit is a sealed steel item, (which is of a far better construction than the other side which looked inadequate to do the job)
My question is does anybody know where I can buy a replacement sealed ball unit to replace mine rather than the available 'kit', which quite frankly I'd rather not use if possible.
Andy.
I've already replaced the other side, with which I used one of the available ball joint kits to replace the knackered one (incidentally the kit was useless, having the incorrect sized circlips and boot, I had to cannibalise the old one).
In removing this side I've found the ball unit is a sealed steel item, (which is of a far better construction than the other side which looked inadequate to do the job)
My question is does anybody know where I can buy a replacement sealed ball unit to replace mine rather than the available 'kit', which quite frankly I'd rather not use if possible.
Andy.
997gt3 said:
I think Porsch-Apart sell re-cond 944 wishbones. Call them on 01706 824053.
Thanks for the reply, I've had a look at the website and they're £150 each exchange!, It's just the sealed metal type ball joint unit I'm after, I'd rather fit it myself to be honest (and save a fortune) surely they must be the same as something else with a press in fitting (VW or audi?)
Are they the same as 928's?
Any ideas???
Andy.
silverS2 said:
997gt3 said:
I think Porsch-Apart sell re-cond 944 wishbones. Call them on 01706 824053.
Thanks for the reply, I've had a look at the website and they're £150 each exchange!, It's just the sealed metal type ball joint unit I'm after, I'd rather fit it myself to be honest (and save a fortune) surely they must be the same as something else with a press in fitting (VW or audi?)
Are they the same as 928's?
Any ideas???
Andy.
Prior to 1986, the 944 has pressed steel front wishbones like the 924 (IIRC), but post 1986 they all used cast aluminium wishbones, and it is not easy to replace the balljoint. I've fitted a recon from Porsche-Apart, and am very happy with it. Replacing the ball joint yourself is going to cost at least £40 for the kit, which (from what I've read on the web - typre '944 ball joint replacement into google) might well not work.
So I'd definately say cough up the £150 + VAT for a wishbone with a 2 ear guarantee and get it done right 1st time.
Thanks for all the info guys, unfortunately for me I couldnt use a kit on this side as being different to the other side there was no spring cup and washer to re use.
luckily the sealed unit I have was still held in place by means of the bottom washer and circlip, I removed these and pressed the sealed unit out.
for interest I ground the burred over metal seal off and opened up the joint, it was still in perfect condition, only having dried out, I cleaned and re greased it adding a .5mm nylon washer underneath the cup assembly (which was an all in one design that went completely around the ball), I replaced the cap and tacked the bottom plate in position, this was all then retained the same way as the other side, with the washer and circlip/ belzona plastic metal.
The SSI kit looks like the route I'll take when they go again (due to its bronze construction), as I really don't like the idea of the ball being retained by a nylon top cup and nothing else (for me, even if the joint is absolutely knackered there should be no way for it to be able to pass through the wishbone)
It may be that the unit I have was a genuine part that an owner had fitted previously (possibly a new arm?), it's certainly nothing like the setup on the other side.
Andy.
luckily the sealed unit I have was still held in place by means of the bottom washer and circlip, I removed these and pressed the sealed unit out.
for interest I ground the burred over metal seal off and opened up the joint, it was still in perfect condition, only having dried out, I cleaned and re greased it adding a .5mm nylon washer underneath the cup assembly (which was an all in one design that went completely around the ball), I replaced the cap and tacked the bottom plate in position, this was all then retained the same way as the other side, with the washer and circlip/ belzona plastic metal.
The SSI kit looks like the route I'll take when they go again (due to its bronze construction), as I really don't like the idea of the ball being retained by a nylon top cup and nothing else (for me, even if the joint is absolutely knackered there should be no way for it to be able to pass through the wishbone)
It may be that the unit I have was a genuine part that an owner had fitted previously (possibly a new arm?), it's certainly nothing like the setup on the other side.
Andy.
Standard 944 wishbone ball joints have a coiled small tapered spring in the bottom to push the cup into the ball as it wears. Between the ball and the housing is a very thin plastic/ptfe, nylon (or similar) cup fitted acurately into the machined aluminium housing. There is nothing wrong with this system if replacement parts are manufactured correctly and the curved hole in the aluminium that the thin plastic bushes fit into has been properly checked or re-machined if it has distorted or worn (most have lasted 10 years or more from new - so the original design cannot be criticised too much).
However trying to fit replacement plastic bushes into the old hole will fail if the parts are not manufactured very precisely and the hole has not been checked or re-machined (as the old ball bangs against the housing when the plastic sleeve has broken or worn and becomes distorted). Only well equiped workshops will have the neccessary tools and experience - not a do it yourself job in my opinion. Many failures we have seen that have been re-manufactured elsewhere are just not good enough quality in this respect.
Another solution is to machine out the curved shape and fit a trapped ball joint in a steel housing(previously mass produced) suitably machined into the original hole. This also works very well because the ball joint is all new and mass produced to high quality. You seem to have one of these.
We have used both methods with complete sucess but do have our own well equiped machine shop to measure, machine and check parts. The most recent Porsche ball joints are particularly difficult because they use a method of closing the ball joint by squashing the cast aluminium and this cannot be reproduced more than once due to chrystalisation of the material. However we have been working with a larger manufacturer to overcome this.
Once we have developed a good solution we sometimes sub-contract the quantity machining to our designs and specifications as volumes increase (because we are not set up for large production manufacturing only very small quantities and development work)- checking and inspecting the supplier and the resulting incoming parts regularly and ensuring we combine the best quality and competitive prices.
As a result - we do quietly supply most of the UK trade with our replacement wishbones - but some others have copied our design - but cannot match our quantities - so I cannot establish if yours is one of ours or not. I Don't think we have had one of ours back again after remanufacturing over a thousand - over the years - but we do get some that have been refurbished elsewhere. I guess even our replacements will eventually need a new ball joint as they cannot all go on for ever whoever made them or repaired them.
We also supply replacements for the 968, 993/964 front wishbones (just with new silent blocks) and shortly will do so for the Boxster/996 track control arms (both silent blocks and ball joints) - rear arms may follow.
The silent blocks (the rubber front bushing) are beginning to wear (with 944's being so old now) and get slack on 993's and are a noise problem on Boxsters and 996's so we now supply mainly with new silent blocks to 944's (with optional plastic bushes for track use £50.00 extra) and try to control a retail price throughout our trade outlets (for 944's it is presently £150.00 + Vat which has not risen in several years - but may have to do so soon). We realise that these replacements need to be fitted all over the Country and so many will be fitted by other businesses - so we have managed to maintain this price and quality over many years because we handle so many in remanufacture while our price control through traders avoides customers potential exploitation elsewhere.
We continually assess the design and change and improve things depending upon the wear and tear of the rubber silent blocks and the needs of customers (older cars doing less miles now and more often being parked up) and at the newer end are continually developing new products as the market dictates.
The biggest problem is that we need to manufacture in large quantities to maintain prices but customers want the new wishbone before sending back the old one (for convenience of fitting and never need more than 2 at one timke) but we also need customer wishbones returned to keep being able to re-supply.
So we hold a huge stock and will send out wishbones before returns (but with a surcharge) and this enables us to both stock quantities to supply the public and the trade and continue to manufacture in efficient numbers with new products of the highest quality.
Baz Hartech
However trying to fit replacement plastic bushes into the old hole will fail if the parts are not manufactured very precisely and the hole has not been checked or re-machined (as the old ball bangs against the housing when the plastic sleeve has broken or worn and becomes distorted). Only well equiped workshops will have the neccessary tools and experience - not a do it yourself job in my opinion. Many failures we have seen that have been re-manufactured elsewhere are just not good enough quality in this respect.
Another solution is to machine out the curved shape and fit a trapped ball joint in a steel housing(previously mass produced) suitably machined into the original hole. This also works very well because the ball joint is all new and mass produced to high quality. You seem to have one of these.
We have used both methods with complete sucess but do have our own well equiped machine shop to measure, machine and check parts. The most recent Porsche ball joints are particularly difficult because they use a method of closing the ball joint by squashing the cast aluminium and this cannot be reproduced more than once due to chrystalisation of the material. However we have been working with a larger manufacturer to overcome this.
Once we have developed a good solution we sometimes sub-contract the quantity machining to our designs and specifications as volumes increase (because we are not set up for large production manufacturing only very small quantities and development work)- checking and inspecting the supplier and the resulting incoming parts regularly and ensuring we combine the best quality and competitive prices.
As a result - we do quietly supply most of the UK trade with our replacement wishbones - but some others have copied our design - but cannot match our quantities - so I cannot establish if yours is one of ours or not. I Don't think we have had one of ours back again after remanufacturing over a thousand - over the years - but we do get some that have been refurbished elsewhere. I guess even our replacements will eventually need a new ball joint as they cannot all go on for ever whoever made them or repaired them.
We also supply replacements for the 968, 993/964 front wishbones (just with new silent blocks) and shortly will do so for the Boxster/996 track control arms (both silent blocks and ball joints) - rear arms may follow.
The silent blocks (the rubber front bushing) are beginning to wear (with 944's being so old now) and get slack on 993's and are a noise problem on Boxsters and 996's so we now supply mainly with new silent blocks to 944's (with optional plastic bushes for track use £50.00 extra) and try to control a retail price throughout our trade outlets (for 944's it is presently £150.00 + Vat which has not risen in several years - but may have to do so soon). We realise that these replacements need to be fitted all over the Country and so many will be fitted by other businesses - so we have managed to maintain this price and quality over many years because we handle so many in remanufacture while our price control through traders avoides customers potential exploitation elsewhere.
We continually assess the design and change and improve things depending upon the wear and tear of the rubber silent blocks and the needs of customers (older cars doing less miles now and more often being parked up) and at the newer end are continually developing new products as the market dictates.
The biggest problem is that we need to manufacture in large quantities to maintain prices but customers want the new wishbone before sending back the old one (for convenience of fitting and never need more than 2 at one timke) but we also need customer wishbones returned to keep being able to re-supply.
So we hold a huge stock and will send out wishbones before returns (but with a surcharge) and this enables us to both stock quantities to supply the public and the trade and continue to manufacture in efficient numbers with new products of the highest quality.
Baz Hartech
Thanks for that excellent answer Baz, I do indeed think I have one of your modified arms fitted, as the engineering quality is exceptional of the steel insert and wishbone, it has a step on the top which engages within the machined hole.
As I said I managed to open the sealed unit up, re-pack the grease and seal it again so that side is now fine, however the other side with the spring retained cup has never been as good, (I've had the arm off twice due to play in the joint)
I've now done away with using the spring for tension, Instead I've carefully packed the joint to the correct tension with spacers.
PCN1, the only problems I've encountered are the outer bottom ball joint and the anti roll bar drop link bushes wearing a bit.
Andy
As I said I managed to open the sealed unit up, re-pack the grease and seal it again so that side is now fine, however the other side with the spring retained cup has never been as good, (I've had the arm off twice due to play in the joint)
I've now done away with using the spring for tension, Instead I've carefully packed the joint to the correct tension with spacers.
PCN1, the only problems I've encountered are the outer bottom ball joint and the anti roll bar drop link bushes wearing a bit.
Andy
Pcn1 said:
Im a little, OK Im very unfamiliar with the suspension design/components of the 944. Can anyone point me to a drawing of the set up and indicate what are the major wear area's ?
Cheers
Cheers
A start:
www.axux70.dsl.pipex.com/944t/suspension.htm
and (968 but apart from rear spring the virtually the same)
www.weissach.net/968_M030-Option.html
Edited by cuneus on Friday 3rd November 19:46
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