Scooby's - the good bits and bad bits to plunder...
Discussion
Now that the black beast is almost back from the body shop and will be up for sale shortly, it's time to look for a replacement...
I've almost convinced myself on one of these now, www.adrenalinemotorsport.co.uk, and as the company is in Cornwall, I'll be able to dop the wife off at the Eden project, while I test drive one on the local B roads...
So for those scooby heads back home, I can use a 1993-2000 WRX/STI/R/RA as the doner, so what's the good and bad bits to look for as I don't really have a clue about these F.I. 4pots???
I've almost convinced myself on one of these now, www.adrenalinemotorsport.co.uk, and as the company is in Cornwall, I'll be able to dop the wife off at the Eden project, while I test drive one on the local B roads...
So for those scooby heads back home, I can use a 1993-2000 WRX/STI/R/RA as the doner, so what's the good and bad bits to look for as I don't really have a clue about these F.I. 4pots???
If I were going to build something like that I'd look for a tidy unmodified STI or if that's not realistic a bog standard WRX. As a wildcard a normally aspirated 2.5 engine could be a bit of fun in something that light - less to go wrong and good torque.
Low mileage is good but they do wear well (mine has done 239,000kms and is tight as a drum). In NZ tidy manual WRXs start at about $4500NZD although cars that can't be registered occasionally pop up and are half this.
Most of the diffs leak but are generally bullet-proof. The boxes take a bit of a hammering and aren't the slickest out there so you should check this out. Same for clutches - an aftermarket it probably sensible as they are often cheaper and a lot harder wearing.
Brakes on the earlier cars are nothing special at all whereas the later cars and special editions are fitted with decent 4-pots.
Replace cam belts and tensioners immediately as a precaution. Missfires (especially on early cars) are usually down to the coil packs (one per cylinder). Rocker covers normally leak oil.
You should be able to sell the rest of the car (if you start with a complete undamaged vehicle) for parts on Ebay and recoup quite a bit of your outlay - if you can be bothered! Similarly, used parts are plentiful on online auctions.
Personally I'd keep the Ultima!
Low mileage is good but they do wear well (mine has done 239,000kms and is tight as a drum). In NZ tidy manual WRXs start at about $4500NZD although cars that can't be registered occasionally pop up and are half this.
Most of the diffs leak but are generally bullet-proof. The boxes take a bit of a hammering and aren't the slickest out there so you should check this out. Same for clutches - an aftermarket it probably sensible as they are often cheaper and a lot harder wearing.
Brakes on the earlier cars are nothing special at all whereas the later cars and special editions are fitted with decent 4-pots.
Replace cam belts and tensioners immediately as a precaution. Missfires (especially on early cars) are usually down to the coil packs (one per cylinder). Rocker covers normally leak oil.
You should be able to sell the rest of the car (if you start with a complete undamaged vehicle) for parts on Ebay and recoup quite a bit of your outlay - if you can be bothered! Similarly, used parts are plentiful on online auctions.
Personally I'd keep the Ultima!
Evidently the V7 STi engines are regarded as the "best out of the box". They come factory with forged pistons, nitrided crank etc. I did a lot of research with very reputable engine builders, Subaru NZ etc and it was quite interesting. It is generally regarded that if it's an STi it's got forged internals etc. This is not true. From V8 onwards Subaru moved to use Hypereutectic pistons instead of forged.
There was also an issue with the coating they used on the pistons and how far down the skirt it was applied. Going for an older engine the stronger ones are the "closed deck blocks" as apposed to the "semi closed" or "open". If this is jibberish to you as it was to me it is referring to the galleries in the engine block.
I have to disagree over the gearboxes. As long as I've ever known people with "superpoos" they were always busting gearboxes. Same as the GTX Mazda's they are weak when pushed above daily driving or bigger HP. Even ones that were strengthened let go. Don't beleive me...check TradeMe ads and most Subies have "rebuilt gearbox", "gearbox strengthened" etc. The guys on the subie forums even joke about them. I opted for the newer 6 speed as they are good for 600ps but are 50kg heavier due to all the extra steel and larger shafts. They are also slightly larger in size. There is always the Albins boxes etc but they are pricey.
You also have to watch for oil starvation with the type of work our types of cars will be doing. Quite prone to it evidently. Also while I remember as a little tip the factory injectors can have their caps removed and you have 850cc injectors with a very nice spray pattern. Common mod
I went for the 2.5 because of the extra torque and with basic bolt ons they are good for 400hp and with more work 600hp. The ultimate is an H6 3ltr flat six twin turboed. Marty Rossenbergs one reached over 600hp on the Link dyno and had to plenty to go but they had to back of due to the"....gearbox
I also got a great deal on mine as it was brand new from Subaru Japan for $3400 with all ancilleries turbo etc.
I did consider getting a whole car here in NZ taking what I needed and parting it out but the bits just didn't make it worth the hassle. IF you went that way it might pay to look at importing a rollover or rear damaged STi. I could have landed a V7 here in NZ for around $8-9000K. Gearboxes alone are $3500 and the engines sell for around $3800-4500.
I must say that I have never owned any Subaru and never really wanted too nor did I want to put one in my Saker but for reasons explained before it seemed logical.
If you don't mind me asking why are you moving out of the Ultima?
I hope that helps. I'll ad stuff as I think of it and have time.
There was also an issue with the coating they used on the pistons and how far down the skirt it was applied. Going for an older engine the stronger ones are the "closed deck blocks" as apposed to the "semi closed" or "open". If this is jibberish to you as it was to me it is referring to the galleries in the engine block.
I have to disagree over the gearboxes. As long as I've ever known people with "superpoos" they were always busting gearboxes. Same as the GTX Mazda's they are weak when pushed above daily driving or bigger HP. Even ones that were strengthened let go. Don't beleive me...check TradeMe ads and most Subies have "rebuilt gearbox", "gearbox strengthened" etc. The guys on the subie forums even joke about them. I opted for the newer 6 speed as they are good for 600ps but are 50kg heavier due to all the extra steel and larger shafts. They are also slightly larger in size. There is always the Albins boxes etc but they are pricey.
You also have to watch for oil starvation with the type of work our types of cars will be doing. Quite prone to it evidently. Also while I remember as a little tip the factory injectors can have their caps removed and you have 850cc injectors with a very nice spray pattern. Common mod
I went for the 2.5 because of the extra torque and with basic bolt ons they are good for 400hp and with more work 600hp. The ultimate is an H6 3ltr flat six twin turboed. Marty Rossenbergs one reached over 600hp on the Link dyno and had to plenty to go but they had to back of due to the"....gearbox
I also got a great deal on mine as it was brand new from Subaru Japan for $3400 with all ancilleries turbo etc. I did consider getting a whole car here in NZ taking what I needed and parting it out but the bits just didn't make it worth the hassle. IF you went that way it might pay to look at importing a rollover or rear damaged STi. I could have landed a V7 here in NZ for around $8-9000K. Gearboxes alone are $3500 and the engines sell for around $3800-4500.
I must say that I have never owned any Subaru and never really wanted too nor did I want to put one in my Saker but for reasons explained before it seemed logical.
If you don't mind me asking why are you moving out of the Ultima?
I hope that helps. I'll ad stuff as I think of it and have time.
I must add that there are obviously Subi owners out there that have had a very good run out of their cars. Again it's relative to the treatment and servicing that they have received. As a base car for modding they have just not been my favourite and never seemed to achieve the same horsepower as other Marque's on the same boost.
Cheers for the info, I have reading bad things about the gearboxes, particularly 2nd gear, but maybe that'd down to a lack of gear shifting talent ability or just abuse.
I think the V7 is later than 2000? If so I'm not sure if the running gear, struts etc will fit the mounts, although I'll check to see how hard it is, but it may upset all their suspension calculations. And it's not just for the engine/running gear, it's lots of little things like boot release mechanisms that they have designed the car around that changed after the 2000 models. I could always run a porker 4wd box...
Alternatively, I can get an earlier one with a dead motor, and then get the motor out of a written off V7...
As for the Ult, well, it's just time to pass the torch on, and the Murt'y is the kind of car I would bring home...
I think the V7 is later than 2000? If so I'm not sure if the running gear, struts etc will fit the mounts, although I'll check to see how hard it is, but it may upset all their suspension calculations. And it's not just for the engine/running gear, it's lots of little things like boot release mechanisms that they have designed the car around that changed after the 2000 models. I could always run a porker 4wd box...
Alternatively, I can get an earlier one with a dead motor, and then get the motor out of a written off V7...
As for the Ult, well, it's just time to pass the torch on, and the Murt'y is the kind of car I would bring home...
If you re-read my post I didn't really say anything positive about the gearboxes!
Lack of mechanical sympathy and gunning them brutally in 1st and 2nd soon puts pay to them. If you start upping the boost levels you can say bye-bye to one pretty quickly if you gun them. I agree, from what I've heard the 6-speeders are way better.
I've never really been a major fan of the WRX but all the reviews of them seemed to indicate they were a great drivers car. To be honest, whilst it's quite quick and goes around corners ok it doesn't really light my fire. I also don't like the way it switches from understeer to oversteer and back again in the blink of an eye in the wet. This could just be down to my car being a bit older or the tyres I'm running or the fact that I love rear wheel drive, but it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. As a result I tend to drive my WRX like an old woman - it cruises 70kms a day on the motorway and that's it. I'll get shot of it soon and get a toyota corolla instead for the daily commute.
Incidentally the reason I suggested an STI is because they come with 280bhp out of the box. That's bog standard and that's the way I'd keep it in something that weighs 900kgs.
Lack of mechanical sympathy and gunning them brutally in 1st and 2nd soon puts pay to them. If you start upping the boost levels you can say bye-bye to one pretty quickly if you gun them. I agree, from what I've heard the 6-speeders are way better.
I've never really been a major fan of the WRX but all the reviews of them seemed to indicate they were a great drivers car. To be honest, whilst it's quite quick and goes around corners ok it doesn't really light my fire. I also don't like the way it switches from understeer to oversteer and back again in the blink of an eye in the wet. This could just be down to my car being a bit older or the tyres I'm running or the fact that I love rear wheel drive, but it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. As a result I tend to drive my WRX like an old woman - it cruises 70kms a day on the motorway and that's it. I'll get shot of it soon and get a toyota corolla instead for the daily commute.
Incidentally the reason I suggested an STI is because they come with 280bhp out of the box. That's bog standard and that's the way I'd keep it in something that weighs 900kgs.
I think the 6 speed would definately be the go, even if it'll probably mean a bit more faffing about with mounting and little things like that...
Personally, I find all Scooby's ugly (and Evo's, well, actually almost all Jap cars), and I really don't like the exhaust note, but they do have gravel racing pedigree, and as such I have no problems using it as a doner car, plus, if you get a proper exhaust manifold with equal length headers, that awful (& distinctivly subaru) wet farting noise disappears, or so I'm told.
The guy's at Adrenaline, said they had an ex Lotus (like they're a dime a dozen?!) engineer or two design the chassis bits, and help dial out the oversteer/understeer characteristics, plus they altered the castor angles and such like.
It even has space for a set of golf clubs! Not that I'll ever use it for that... hmmm, where in NZ did I stash my old car amp and subs...
I hope to get down that way, or perhaps a trackday in Cardiff that they are thinking of holding with the Tonic guys, in a couple of months, so I'll take plenty of HiRes piccies for all...
Personally, I find all Scooby's ugly (and Evo's, well, actually almost all Jap cars), and I really don't like the exhaust note, but they do have gravel racing pedigree, and as such I have no problems using it as a doner car, plus, if you get a proper exhaust manifold with equal length headers, that awful (& distinctivly subaru) wet farting noise disappears, or so I'm told.
The guy's at Adrenaline, said they had an ex Lotus (like they're a dime a dozen?!) engineer or two design the chassis bits, and help dial out the oversteer/understeer characteristics, plus they altered the castor angles and such like.
It even has space for a set of golf clubs! Not that I'll ever use it for that... hmmm, where in NZ did I stash my old car amp and subs...
I hope to get down that way, or perhaps a trackday in Cardiff that they are thinking of holding with the Tonic guys, in a couple of months, so I'll take plenty of HiRes piccies for all...
peterpsg said:
if you get a proper exhaust manifold with equal length headers, that awful (& distinctivly subaru) wet farting noise disappears, or so I'm told.
Note that when subaru switched over to the WRC format car the noise changed significantly from the classic WRX burble to a harsher noise. I suspect that's the reason behind it
Esprit said:
peterpsg said:
if you get a proper exhaust manifold with equal length headers, that awful (& distinctivly subaru) wet farting noise disappears, or so I'm told.
Note that when subaru switched over to the WRC format car the noise changed significantly from the classic WRX burble to a harsher noise. I suspect that's the reason behind it
It's the exhaust header system that determines the Burble or not. I've actually heard some very tasty ones that sounded almost supercar-ish with quite a raspy crisp highrevving sound. A sequential gearbox is what is on my wish list
Have you considered using a group N rally gearbox instead of the road version? should be a fair bit tougher with more choice of ratios. Theres also an NZ company who makes a sequential shifter for Subaru boxes, I remember them advertising with a working example at the Race to the Sky last easter.
Cheers Ben,
I'll give them an email, although there's a .jp version done by another company as well.
I have a few people interested in Black Beauty, so hopefully I'll be in a position soon to sort out a suitable doner; might look for a nice type R to plunder for parts for this purpose.
I'm off to a track day in Feb to test out the Murtaya, so we'll see if it's up to scratch around the corners.
If you have anymore links or that feel free to post them, as I'll be quite keen to get underway when the Ulti's gone.
Pete
I'll give them an email, although there's a .jp version done by another company as well.
I have a few people interested in Black Beauty, so hopefully I'll be in a position soon to sort out a suitable doner; might look for a nice type R to plunder for parts for this purpose.
I'm off to a track day in Feb to test out the Murtaya, so we'll see if it's up to scratch around the corners.
If you have anymore links or that feel free to post them, as I'll be quite keen to get underway when the Ulti's gone.
Pete
The type R and type RA have different gearboxes (at least I'm pretty sure they do), so probably worth driving both at some stage if you can to see which box you prefer. The type RA has closer ratios and the sweetest shift I've ever experienced. the RA V-ltd is slightly different again, it has the RA box but with a longer 5th gear out of either the WRX or regular STi for better cruising, not quite sure which.
Edited by GravelBen on Sunday 28th January 21:33
Kiwi XTR2 said:
GravelBen said:
. . . with a longer 5th gear out of either the WRX or regular STi . . .
6th ?
Nope, we're talking 1st-gen Impreza (93-2000 mentioned by OP) which were 5-speed. At least all the ones I've seen/driven were. The 6-speed box from the newer cars is supposed to be much stronger than the normal 5-speed though, not sure how it compares to the RA close ratio box which isn't much different to the group N box.
GravelBen said:
Kiwi XTR2 said:
GravelBen said:
. . . with a longer 5th gear out of either the WRX or regular STi . . .
6th ?
Nope, we're talking 1st-gen Impreza (93-2000 mentioned by OP) which were 5-speed. At least all the ones I've seen/driven were. The 6-speed box from the newer cars is supposed to be much stronger than the normal 5-speed though, not sure how it compares to the RA close ratio box which isn't much different to the group N box.
The six speed is much larger and stronger as seen by the pic below. The problem with the 5 speed WRX gearboxes in general is they can't cope with bigger power or hard loadings. PPG www.ppgearbox.com.au/html/wrxinformation.htm in Australia do stronger internals but they are pricey. The other thing is that most of the WRX boxes don't have the right ratios for a track car as they were more designed for a rally car. Some boxes top out at a little over 200kph and 1-4 are so close together on a track you'd be changing gear all the time. The six speed has it's drawbacks as well the main one being it's weight. You could always buy a Pro-drive sequential at a tad over $80K I kid you not!
"WRC regulations allow trick gearboxes, so each Subaru WRC rally car is fitted with an $80,000, sequential-shift, semi-automatic gearbox similar to the gearboxes in Formula One cars"
The K.A.S.S setup looks interesting but I'm not sure how well it would work with the box at the rear most of the car linkages wise.
There are other options like this..
www.cuscoracing.com/0607-3.htm
www.tomei-p.co.jp/_2003web-catalogue/efr_set-from_top-menu/efr_index_holinger_rset.html
Obviously it's a lot easier if your not having it to run transaxle.
Edited by kiwi carguy on Saturday 17th February 04:12
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