Could something like Group B ever return ?
Discussion
One of the main reasons Group B was stopped (apart from the spate of accidents) was that the cars were actually going faster than the responses of the humans controlling them. Essentially they were out of control.
The current WRC is rubbish and they have slowly ruined it over the last few years with bad marketing, reducing the number and length of the stages, increased costs and stupid safety rules.
The current WRC is rubbish and they have slowly ruined it over the last few years with bad marketing, reducing the number and length of the stages, increased costs and stupid safety rules.
I think a new class for rallying sports cars (preferably mid-engined) could be introduced, maybe with some track stages and night races as well, as a sort of 'ultimate motorsport' one-car multi-discipline championship. Now that would be really spectacular. Obviously, there would have to be power limits, but as has been said many times since 1986, it wasn't the power or the cars that were the problem, it was the tyres - they just couldn't get enough grip.
If a championship like that were to go ahead, imagine what you'd get - toughened-up Lotus Europas with adjustable suspension, 4WD Porsche Caymans, hardcore Audi TT2s. I know it could happen if someone wanted it to...
If a championship like that were to go ahead, imagine what you'd get - toughened-up Lotus Europas with adjustable suspension, 4WD Porsche Caymans, hardcore Audi TT2s. I know it could happen if someone wanted it to...
cmsapms said:
COULD SOMETHING LIKE GROUP B EVER RETURN?
Nope, it was far too exciting to be allowed these days!
It can be - www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn3x11nJUqk actually it's probably because it's not covered very well on TV so you miss the good bits, there's load about.
And over the same stages on a WRC the modern cars will be faster than the group B cars.
twincam16 said:
Obviously, there would have to be power limits, but as has been said many times since 1986, it wasn't the power or the cars that were the problem, it was the tyres - they just couldn't get enough grip.
I always thought the problem was the sheer pace of the things. A FISA investigation into Henri Toivonen's death reported that the drivers' focus couldn't adjust to each corner because the cars were going so fast. Surely more grip would have resulted in this problem being worse?
Group B rally cars were essentially not far off contemporary F1 pace - Toivonen set a time around Estoril in his Lancia that would have put in him the top ten on the grid for that year.
In today's terms that would mean having a rally car pretty much as fast as a modern Honda F1 car. It would be some spectacle, but given the deaths in recent years (Lovell/Park for example) of competitors in current WRC cars, raising the bar to a modern group B level would surely never be allowed.
i would love to see the RoC buggies adapted for a co driver then rallied, that would be awesome. 150bhp, weighs the same as a jaffa cake and rear wheel drive!
i am not sure why people always want more power, some of the best racing is found in the lower classes where driver skil and the ability to maintain speed through corners is critical, more power means not having to rely on ability though the grp b drivers had that by the bucket load! isnt colin mcrae buliding a buggy with fords help to make rallying more cost effective? i think its a great idea as long as the finished product looks bonkers and makes people go "wow!" sometimes a rally cars are too close to the cars on the street though i appreciate fopr many that it the appeal.
So does a rally car really need to be a closed roof, granted it would need some changes to the logistics of a rally but something like a modified ariel atom would be great to watch on a stage though i guess suspension travel would be an issue!! if someone organised a proper rally for the rage buggies you can hire i would be there at the front of the queue!
i am not sure why people always want more power, some of the best racing is found in the lower classes where driver skil and the ability to maintain speed through corners is critical, more power means not having to rely on ability though the grp b drivers had that by the bucket load! isnt colin mcrae buliding a buggy with fords help to make rallying more cost effective? i think its a great idea as long as the finished product looks bonkers and makes people go "wow!" sometimes a rally cars are too close to the cars on the street though i appreciate fopr many that it the appeal.
So does a rally car really need to be a closed roof, granted it would need some changes to the logistics of a rally but something like a modified ariel atom would be great to watch on a stage though i guess suspension travel would be an issue!! if someone organised a proper rally for the rage buggies you can hire i would be there at the front of the queue!
kiwisr said:
One of the main reasons Group B was stopped (apart from the spate of accidents) was that the cars were actually going faster than the responses of the humans controlling them. Essentially they were out of control.
really?
So how do modern day rally drivers cope then? the current wrc's are faster now.
they got banned coz they weren't inherently safe, they were a big engine, next to a bag tank, surrounded by flimsy plastic.
the general safety of rallying back then was not too good.
i think all that is required for todays wrc, is to remove the restrictors on the turbos and bring back slicks for tarmac.
muzzer79 said:
Group B rally cars were essentially not far off contemporary F1 pace - Toivonen set a time around Estoril in his Lancia that would have put in him the top ten on the grid for that year.
Wow! Thats pretty incredible. I did'nt realise they were that quick.
I remember reading the 0-100 time for the Lancia S4 (correct name?) and being impressed. Even more so when I realised it was timed on gravel!
Like the idea someone had for a mid-engined rally car series
muzzer79 said:
twincam16 said:
Obviously, there would have to be power limits, but as has been said many times since 1986, it wasn't the power or the cars that were the problem, it was the tyres - they just couldn't get enough grip.
Group B rally cars were essentially not far off contemporary F1 pace - Toivonen set a time around Estoril in his Lancia that would have put in him the top ten on the grid for that year.I think that is pretty much a myth. It is repeated many times on various sites, but there is not much around to back it up. The figures involved do not tend to make it seem likely either. In 1986 F1 cars had silly amounts of power - the Ligier-Renault JS27 had about 900Hp in race tune and more for qualifying. Minimum weight for 1986 was 575Kg, so the cars would have been close to that. The Lancia Delta S4 weighed over 1000Kg, and had about 550-600Hp. The F1 car also had much bigger tyres and more downforce.
stockhatcher said:
kiwisr said:
One of the main reasons Group B was stopped (apart from the spate of accidents) was that the cars were actually going faster than the responses of the humans controlling them. Essentially they were out of control.
really?
So how do modern day rally drivers cope then? the current wrc's are faster now.
It was the sheer power though. The speeds were ridiculous on anything that was nearly straight, so despite them being relatively slow around bends and slower than WRC cars overall, the speeds were silly when they could use the power.
The reactions needed to control such wayward cars were incredible: 500PS, 950kg, handling that required them to be unstable at all times in order to go around bends, basic transmissions and light switch power delivery. They were mad, mad days.
The Autosport RAC Rally issue included a track test by Markko Martin of the Stratos, Sport Quattro and Focus WRC03 - Martin reckoned the Audi to be fantastically powerful and bordering on dangerous to drive because of its archaic transmission. He still said it was his favourite though, because he just loved all that power.
Well there are actually quite a few similary powered "road cars" that can be seen on the circuits pretty frequently. Where 5-6-700bhp is becoming the norm, all the stuff GroupB used to have like stonking big turbo's, external wastegates, huge exhaust flamage on overun, very loud things 
& might I aslo add god damn damn fast too!!! The only thing their lacking compared to GroupB is 4wd as thats not allowed.
To give you some idea a couple of the cars last year logged 10 second quarter miles & their not designed for drag racing, many have the potential for 200mph top speeds & yes they are all based on production road cars. I've just spent the past 3 months building my car into a 500+ bhp monster, it is a track car but it will be road legal too, hopefully it'll scare a few numpies
Check out some of the cars from the D1 series & the new www.europeandriftchampionships.eu if you want pertolheaded big horsepower mayhem than the top level drift cars are currently just about the only things that fit the GroupB category & there is nothing stopping anybody building their own one & coming out play
This is whats under the bonnet of my car this year, only 525bhp planned, Garrett GT3076r Turbo, externally wastegated, running standalone management & I'll be taxing it this week for the road
& might I aslo add god damn damn fast too!!! The only thing their lacking compared to GroupB is 4wd as thats not allowed. To give you some idea a couple of the cars last year logged 10 second quarter miles & their not designed for drag racing, many have the potential for 200mph top speeds & yes they are all based on production road cars. I've just spent the past 3 months building my car into a 500+ bhp monster, it is a track car but it will be road legal too, hopefully it'll scare a few numpies
Check out some of the cars from the D1 series & the new www.europeandriftchampionships.eu if you want pertolheaded big horsepower mayhem than the top level drift cars are currently just about the only things that fit the GroupB category & there is nothing stopping anybody building their own one & coming out play
This is whats under the bonnet of my car this year, only 525bhp planned, Garrett GT3076r Turbo, externally wastegated, running standalone management & I'll be taxing it this week for the road
Edited by cptsideways on Thursday 15th February 18:06
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff