Cornering basics 2 Assessing a bend without the limit point

[R_U_LOCAL]

There was considerable debate following my last post as to where the road went next. Debate no more, for all is revealed - a short straight, followed by a right hander...



Now, let's consider this next bend - as with the last one, it'd be fairly easy to assess using the limit point - I've got the hand of God to point it out again...



In this case, however, if you extend your observations a little bit - "look outside the box" a little, you'll pick up enough clues to allow you to assess this bend properly without having to use the limit point at all. The next picture is the same as above, but with the essential area circled...



In the circle, you'll see the road continuing uphill to the right, and you can also see a car travelling towards us. This shows you, almost immediately, the angle of the upcoming corner. It allows you to plan your position on approach, to get your speed and gear correct for the corner, and to plan the line you'll take as you drive around it. Let's move a bit closer to the bend...



Now, we're getting to a point where you'll be getting your speed and gear correct for the bend, and planning your line through it. Two potential hazards have come into view though - can you see them?...



There is an entrance to the left, right on the corner itself, which has a very limited view into it, and further up the road, there is a line of fencing which indicates a possible road off to the right. The presence of this road is confirmed by the small white car which is driving along it, towards our road.

Let's consider the entrance on the left first. Even without that entrance, if there are no on-coming vehicles, my plan would be to go offside through this corner - it gives you the benefit of making the radius of the turn as large as possible, so your car will remain as stable as possible through the corner. Another advantage of going offside through the corner is that this road appears to have been built with crown camber (raised in the middle and lower towards the edges to aid drainage). Now, crown camber can be a disadvantage when negotiating right-hand bends, as the slope to the nearside can destabilise a car, forcing it out towards the nearside. If you take an offside position, however, the crown camber actually helps you through the bend, keeping the car more stable.

There would be a third major advantage from taking an offside position through this bend. Remembering that we should always keep a zone of relative safety around us when we're driving, a move offside would keep you away from the entrance, and away from any vehicles which could potentially emerge.

Clearly, the plan would be different with on-coming vehicles present, and in that case, you'd have to lose more speed for the corner to allow you to remain safely on the nearside of the road, albeit towards the centre-line, away from the entrance on the left.

As for the junction to the right further up the road - it shouldn't alter our plan for this corner - if the white car emerged and turned left towards us, it wouldn't be anywhere near the bend when we negotiate it, but it could have some implications. Approaching it after the bend, you should be wary of other vehicles emerging or turning into th junction, and you could end up coming up behind the white car if it's turned right, so an overtake might now form part of your future plans.

As far as this single corner goes, however, it's not really too relevant, but it does show the benefit of an extended view.

As we get to the bend itself, it all becomes clear and the plan should fit into place nicely...



The muddy tyre marks coming out of the entrance on the left confirm that it's used regularly, so we're absolutely correct to move away from it. In the distance, you can just make out the white car which has turned left towards us, so we've got a nice clear run through the bend, and plenty of time to return to the nearside, from where we'll consider the next hazard...

[Kermit power]

Nice to see someone with such a high level of expertise advocating making full use of the road (ie, moving to the offside on this corner). I posted up a video filmed from the passenger seat of a nice road in France where I was doing exactly as suggested and had a number of comments on another forum suggesting how irresponsible I was to be doing this. When I asked exactly what was irresponsible about it, I was met with a deafening silence!

[Vaux]

Is it not possible that there could be a hazard, hidden from view by the trees, between the indicated limit point and the area of extended view?
Not moving, but maybe a fallen tree, parked car?
Maybe I just can't see clearly enough.
Wouldn't planning to offside in this case bring you into a possible conflict?

[victormeldrew]

I'd be presuming the road was clear as the oncoming car either traversed it or was beamed up by aliens!

[Vaux]

victormeldrew said:

I'd be presuming the road was clear as the oncoming car either traversed it or was beamed up by aliens!

Not if it wasn't on his side of the road?
And I've seen aliens..........

[chris_tivver]

Nice theory but a slight warning
I know of 3 corners where you get a good view of the line of the road out of the corner and it is nice and gentle. Only trouble is that when enter the corner you suddenly discover that the exit you saw is actually a side road or track and that the road you are on turns far more sharply.

1 is a notorious accident blackspot, the other 2 are relatively quite roads so someone going wide (left handers) tends on average not to hit anything. Oh and only one of the 3 is marked as a junction in any way that would give you a clue that there is a junction on the corner

Not intended as criticism as I use this technique too, but like all good rules, there are exceptions

[tank slapper]

Vaux said:

Is it not possible that there could be a hazard, hidden from view by the trees, between the indicated limit point and the area of extended view?
Not moving, but maybe a fallen tree, parked car?
Maybe I just can't see clearly enough.
Wouldn't planning to offside in this case bring you into a possible conflict?

Bear in mind that your view through the trees would be changing all the time, so something that is potentially hidden behind them in one of the shots above is likely to be visible a second or two later.

[R_U_LOCAL]

Vaux said:

Is it not possible that there could be a hazard, hidden from view by the trees, between the indicated limit point and the area of extended view?
Not moving, but maybe a fallen tree, parked car?
Maybe I just can't see clearly enough.
Wouldn't planning to offside in this case bring you into a possible conflict?

Things like that are always possible - our plans should be based on what we can see and what we can't see, so yes, you're right. Have a look at the last picture though...




This is taken from a point which is still before the driver would turn in to the corner, and there's nothing to stop us going offside there, is there? If there were something which had been hidden which prevented us from going offside, then we'd revert back to the start of the system again - information has changed, so we'd reconsider our position, speed and gear before committing to the bend. Don't forget the safe stopping rule that we should always be applying too - always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear.

So, the answer to your question is - yes, those things, and a thousand other things could be hidden from your view on the way towards that corner. The trick is to include those possibilities in your plan, and always have an alternative plan.

[willibetz]

Another great article - thanks Reg.

Can I check my understanding on one point (which I know you've touched on in other replies)?

Very early on in the sequence, before you had a view of the road surface, you mentioned your plan to use the offside through the corner. That surprised me slightly - if you plan that early to use the other side of the road and adopt a speed and gear based on that plan, then you can only ever be proved right or disappointed. You can't be right or pleasantly surprised.

Without presuming to speak for you, is it fair to suggest that you are planning to confine yourself to your own side of the road, but looking for the opportunity to offside (ie. take a line through the other side of the road)?

A very subtle (pedantic? ) difference, but perhaps a direct analogy to the approach to a roundabout.

WilliBetz

[Syd knee]

That raises the question of exactly what do you mean by offside? Is that clip the white line, is that cross the white line, or is that just miss the offside curb?

[LordGrover]

I interpreted it as using the offside lane, or as you put it, just missing the offside curb. This has the effect of 'straightening' the bend and putting greater distance between you and the potential hazard on the left.

[Major Bloodnok]

LordGrover said:

I interpreted it as using the offside lane, or as you put it, just missing the offside curb. This has the effect of 'straightening' the bend and putting greater distance between you and the potential hazard on the left.

Surely that would earn you a big, fat "fail" on an IAM test, though. Especially given that the road is marked with a hazard line, not a plain centre line.

I'm not suggesting that it's wrong to go offside, just that I'm pretty sure that the IAM (and RoSPA) wouldn't approve. I also recall vonhosen making a comment somewhere about not crossing the centre line unless you could potentially see a roller skate on the road for the whole distance.

[7db]

Think you could see a snake on a roller-skate in that last photo.

RoSPA won't teach it, nor will it dock marks for doing it. They are covering their arses.

[R_U_LOCAL]

7db said:

Think you could see a snake on a roller-skate in that last photo.

RoSPA won't teach it, nor will it dock marks for doing it. They are covering their arses.

I teach it, and so do the majority of Police driving schools. It's the correct course of action in that particular corner for all the reasons I listed in the original post...

Maximising the radius of the turn

Taking advantage of the crown camber

Moving you away from the nearside entrance.

I really can't see a downside to going offside. The hazard lines are only that - hazard lines - they indicate the presense of a hazard, but there's no requirement whatsoever to stay on the nearside of them as there would be, for isntance, with double-white lines.

And Willi - although my primary plan would be to go offside, as there is a good (but not perfect) view of the road beyond the corner, there would always be a secondary plan to remain nearside if something did come into view. I wasn't suggesting that you should commit to going offside - just that it would be the best option.

[flemke]

R_U_LOCAL said:

7db said:

Think you could see a snake on a roller-skate in that last photo.

RoSPA won't teach it, nor will it dock marks for doing it. They are covering their arses.

I teach it, and so do the majority of Police driving schools. It's the correct course of action in that particular corner for all the reasons I listed in the original post...

Maximising the radius of the turn

Taking advantage of the crown camber

Moving you away from the nearside entrance.

I really can't see a downside to going offside. The hazard lines are only that - hazard lines - they indicate the presense of a hazard, but there's no requirement whatsoever to stay on the nearside of them as there would be, for isntance, with double-white lines.

And Willi - although my primary plan would be to go offside, as there is a good (but not perfect) view of the road beyond the corner, there would always be a secondary plan to remain nearside if something did come into view. I wasn't suggesting that you should commit to going offside - just that it would be the best option.

No disagreement with any of the above.
This is a pretty interesting bend, however.
The interplay of the adverse camber on the nearside and the fairly blind junction on the left suggests to me that one would want to approach the bend from hard on the nearside to get the view ahead and fatten the radius, hope to cut the corner but be prepared for something unsighted behind the cluster of offside trees, and seek to cut the corner in order to allow more space away from that blind junction.
That would lead to a bigger lift off the throttle prior to the bend than would otherwise be the case, wouldn't it?

[R_U_LOCAL]

flemke said:

No disagreement with any of the above.
This is a pretty interesting bend, however.
The interplay of the adverse camber on the nearside and the fairly blind junction on the left suggests to me that one would want to approach the bend from hard on the nearside to get the view ahead and fatten the radius, hope to cut the corner but be prepared for something unsighted behind the cluster of offside trees, and seek to cut the corner in order to allow more space away from that blind junction.
That would lead to a bigger lift off the throttle prior to the bend than would otherwise be the case, wouldn't it?

If the bend were completely visible, i.e. there were no trees or hedge to the offside, then I'd be happy to approach this bend towards the nearside, take a line which cuts towards the offside kerb and then back to the nearside on the exit, and continue accelerating throughout.

As this isn't the case, and the view, although good, isn't perfect, then yes, I'd be holding a nearside position until I were closer to the bend and the view was better. As you can see from the later picture, the view does open up nicely, but as we've held the nearside position a little longer to confirm the view, then my position wouldn't be completely offside through the bend - it'd more than likely be straddling the centre line.

As you've identified, it'd probably entail holding back on the acceleration until that view opens up too, but acceleration sense is a very important skill in road driving, and adjusting your speed for corners just by using the throttle is a difficult and delicate skill.

Cornering on the road is a very broad-ranging subject, and I'll cover other aspects of it in future posts. I'll be looking at position on approach and lines through corners, linking corners, balancing the car on the throttle, and I'm also hoping to post a couple of videos once I've sussed out a way of mounting my camera in the car (one which doesn't entail Local Junior getting travel sick, anyway).

[flemke]

R_U_LOCAL said:

acceleration sense is a very important skill in road driving, and adjusting your speed for corners just by using the throttle is a difficult and delicate skill.

My instructor used to say (when I was on speaking terms with him) that, as a rule, you should accelerate in the first 1/3 of the typical straight and then lift in order to arrive at the next bend at the right speed to avoid the need to brake.
At first I thought that he was being much too conservative, but over time I have come to appreciate that that guideline is a pretty good one.

[willibetz]

R_U_LOCAL said:

And Willi - although my primary plan would be to go offside, as there is a good (but not perfect) view of the road beyond the corner, there would always be a secondary plan to remain nearside if something did come into view. I wasn't suggesting that you should commit to going offside - just that it would be the best option.

Thanks for the explanation. It's an interesting, if subtle, difference in approach.

WilliBetz

[rich 36]

Right about the time I see that fence,






Im thinking Horses (especially)

using the road and maybee heading towards the Elbow of the road & ME,

And the last place I want to have to slow and avoid them on the O/S verge
would be, (as I think you are saying)
....On the wrong side of the carriageway,
where I would now look slightly stupid as a failed boy racer

But lets discuss

[victormeldrew]

Shetland Ponies perhaps? That's the only think that would fail to be visible over the itty bitty hedge there!